Today’s “WTF?” moment
My buddy, Bev Perlson, sent this video this morning. Fox News’ Judge Napolitano interviews Adam Kokesh as if Kokesh is just another guy off the street running for office without mentioning that Kokesh was/is a member of IVAW;
If Napolitano had done his research, he’d know that his endorsement of Kokesh’s candidacy is fairly misplaced. Kokesh was busted by the Marine Corps for smuggling an Iraqi pistol back to the States – does that sound like someone we need in Congress? He misrepresented his character of service and continued to call himself something he’s not – and oh, he bullied bloggers.
He has admitted to drug abuse on his blog (which has since been altered since he started his congressional campaign but not before TAH captured it). Remember Kokesh when he teamed up with Jon DeWald to disparage veterans? Remember when Kokesh tried to start some violence on GWU’s campus by tacking up handbills around campus that were obviously racist, but were blamed on a conservative student group?
Remember when Kokesh was arrested for posting anti-war handbills in Lafayette Park after the police told him to stop? Remember what Kokesh told the officer when the character of Kokesh’s discharge was being determined? And, oh, at that same link is Kokesh’s recounting of an incident in Germany when he tried to organize active duty soldiers against the war on base.
You can see Kokesh’s DD214 here because TAH will always be there when Kokesh shows up in public.
Is that who Napolitano is endorsing? A chameleon who changes his politics with the direction of the political wind? While the anti-war movement was deteriorating, Kokesh changed horses in midstream to become Paulian and now he’s a Republican candidate in New Mexico. Last March, Kokesh was marching with communists, anarchists and socialists in the ANSWER march on the Pentagon. Today he’s instructing us on his commitment to the Constitution on FOX NEWS as a REPUBLICAN candidate. In just ten months.
I don’t know how Napolitano can call Kokesh a “Constitutional candidate” when IVAW encourages servicemembers to violate their oath to the Constitution.
January 24th, 2010 at 10:51 am
Thanks for posting this! His reputation precedes himself! You can run Adam, but you can’t hide! He did fail to mention his associations with the SDS, World Can’t Wait, Answer, and encouraging abuse of recruiters and recruiting stations, didn’t he?! Adam Kokesh is an ex-Marine in the same category as John Murtha!
Beverly Perlson
The Band of Mothers
January 24th, 2010 at 11:23 am
I’ve passed this on to everybody I’m still in touch with in northern New Mexico. Farmington is still very conservative, and they will NOT be pleased with this asshat.
January 24th, 2010 at 11:57 am
His tale is a bit like Kerrys, it seems.
But running as a REPUBLICAN?
January 24th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
The thing is, as soon as his opponent finds out he is still a member of IVAW, he’s pretty much done. If I were running against him, I’d be using Carl Webb’s and Matthis Chiroux’s statements against him. Who is he running against anyways?
January 24th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I like the Judge, normally. But, he fucked up this time…and I feel sorry for the ignorant NM voters.
January 24th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Tom Mullins is the only other declared candidate so far, and he’s crushing Kokesh. Unfortunately, the Tea Party hasn’t yet figured out the deal with Kokesh, as they’re still letting him show up at their events:
http://newmexicoindependent.com/44598/kokesh-accuses-speaker-lujan-of-corruption-while-father-faces-sec-charges
And further on in the story, it looks like Daddy Kokesh has some problems of his own.
But in any event, it’s all whistling past the graveyard. 3rd CD is solidly Democrat.
http://www.mullinsforcongress.com/
January 24th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Good morning, boys and girls.
What is it about the interview of Kokesh that leads you to the conclusion that he is changing horses in midstream? Do you not understand that there are, and always have been, Republicans who are libertarians and libertarians who are Republicans, and that there have been Republicans and libertarians involved in the antiwar movement from the start? I have always known this and while I don’t know Adam Kokesh, nobody else I know of who is either Libertarian and/or Republican ever changed to the left all the while speaking out against the war right along with the left.
Or did you all think that every single person in this country who is a member of the Republican Party or registered as a Republican, agreed with the war on Iraq?
I am not defending any of Kokesh’s questionable actvities with regard to smuggling weapons or drug use, but, come on, folks, wake up to reality.
There is nothing remotely new or unusual about a libertarian moving in between the Libertarian Party and the Republican Party; that kind of thing has been going on since the very inception of the Libertarian Party. And Kokesh did not change horses; he is simply riding the same horse he always has.
Seriously, I like you all here, but the only surprising thing revealed in this post is how blind you all apparently are to the reality of the American political landscape.
Thank you for your interest in this matter and have a good day.
January 24th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Hey, Deb, maybe Kokesh is running as a R/Libertarian because either the dem has a lock on the seat, and he wasn’t welcome, or maybe the dem party in NM has more on the ball than the republican party does? Just askin?
And, I think you missed the whole point, Kokesh is neither a libertarian or a republican. He has, however, managed to fool a number of people as to what he is, Ron Paul among them. But, anyone who hangs out with ANSWER doesn’t belong in either the Libertarian, or Republican parties.
January 24th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Well, UpNorth, I think you missed the point of what I was saying. I have marched the streets with ANSWER
January 24th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
(continuing from accidentally posted response):
…many times all the while registered as a Republican holding libertarian views.
I have no reason to believe that Kokesh is not sincere about his political beliefs.
January 24th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Debra, if you’ll read what I actually wrote, you’ll notice I said he changed horses in midstream when he jumped from IVAW/VFP/ANSWER/MFSO, etc… to Ron Paul. That’s a leap, isn’t it? From Communists, Anarchists, Socialists to the Far Right.
January 24th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
I just don’t see it as leap at all. Many libertarians have anarcho-capitalist or individualist anarchist philosophical views, and many of them (not all) have been against the Iraq war. If you’re against the Iraq war and want to protest, who are you going to protest with?
Again, hello. AS a registered Republican who is actually a libertarian, I not only joined VFP and began demonstrating with leftists, I also am the founder of the Atlanta VFP chapter (though I’ve since moved away).
All of this I did, beginning and ending as a libertarian. None of my political views ever changed, even remotely (except that I now have the street smarts and insider knowledge that can only be gained from having actually been there and done it).
January 24th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Kokesh and his IVAW cohorts amount to nothing but a huge pile of dogshit.
Debra Clark….you admit to standing with ANSWER? Nuff said.
Thank you Beverly for bringing this to light…the Judge, who i agree with most of the time, dropped the ball on this one.
January 24th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
Mike Blankenship, no it’s not “enough said.” I’ve marched in the same protest marches with ANSWER as a separate individual and have never stood with them in their political goals and agenda. I would like to strongly request that you not malign my character and values.
I would also like to strongly request that you open your eyes and love your own country enough to realize and understand there is a difference between an American who loves her country, loves freedom, but doesn’t believe in the Iraq war, as opposed to those who those who hate America and would support a revolution that would destroy freedom all the while using the war as their front to peddle their socialist/communist political agenda.
Are you so ignorant of what the problems are in this country that you believe that opposition to the war is the identifying feature of the forces opposed to freedom? If so, then enough said.
If not, then please apologize for insulting my character on a public blog.
Thank you.
January 24th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Ron Paul’s anti military, anti Israel, anti corporation/globalization pretty much lands him in the communist camp in my book anyway. So Kokesh’s jump from communist to Paulian is not that big of a shift as far as Im concerned.
January 24th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
#15 should read corporation/globalization stance,
January 24th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Debra Clark
Mike Blankenship has nothing to apologize for … you are the one who ‘maligned your character’ by marching with ANSWER. ‘Nuff said.
Marine 83
Roger that!!!
January 24th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Marine 83, based on your comment, then I would say that you don’t understand what communism is and why it is a threat to freedom, which also means you don’t possess the tools to counter it.
January 24th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Deb, wasn’t talking to you, but I see I touched a nerve by insulting St. Polly.
January 24th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Marine 83…Well, yes, you did touch a nerve – not so much because you insulted Ron Paul, who can defend himself, but because it came on the heels of Mike Blankenship’s insult about my character.
January 24th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Debra….March, Stand, About Face, Backflip,or Leapfrog with ANSWER….it’s one in the same. You can’t walk shoulder to shoulder with a group such as ANSWER and in the same breath say you don’t subscribe to their ideology. That’s no different than marching with the KKK and saying you’re not a racist. You aaaare who you associate with.
You are a registered Republican, but a libertarian?
You marched with leftists against the war in Iraq, but yet you come here and say you really like everyone here? Just who do you think is here? It’s not the IVAW, that’s for damn sure.
You’re having a really hard time figuring out just who you are and where you fit in….
January 24th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Debra Clark DOES have a point.
People and organizations gleefully use terms loosely when convenient, that’s simply a fact.
I’ll note that our founding fathers were libertarians (note the lower case).
But, also that she’s quite right when she points out that the current crop of Libertarians is a conglomeration of ideologies.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck… er, uh, I guess it’s a Libertarian. Suits me!
As far as Ms. Clark marching with ANSWER, but not actually marching with ANSWER that’s one of those magical experiences that defy rational explanation, I guess.
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
January 24th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Okay, Mikey…that’s wonderful…You just called Jesus Christ a prostitute.
Also, FYI, the IVAW IS HERE. Now I’m wondering if you ever actually read anything here and have any idea of what’s going on, or am I just special to have somehow warranted your personal attention.
I don’t know why on earth it comes as any revelation to you that there are libertarians who are registered Republicans. What do you think Ron Paul is? I was registered as a Republican in my previous state because I couldn’t bring myself to register as a Democrat and I wasn’t all that interested in being registered as an Independent either. Currently I’m registered as a Libertarian in my current state; at least that’s what I filled out and what it says on my voter registration card.
In a continuing effort to broaden your horizons here on This Ain’t Hell, here is an article written by Lew Rockwell about his speech that he gave at an antiwar rally several years ago: http://mises.org/story/1923
Sadly, I doubt that Lew Rockwell’s article will be of any effect in trying to educate you folks here, and I have a lot more that I’d like to say about your collectivist ideas in the way you categorize people, Mikey, but I am very busy right now…I am working on a winging banner for my son-in-law’s winging ceremony, plus my grandson wants me to come over. So I will leave you to your own perplexity as I have more important people to…uh…associate with right now…
January 24th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Thank you for your support, Ponsdorf. Very touching. And it was very astute of you to notice that lying down with dogs does not turn you into a dog. Mikey, I hope you’re taking notes.
As columnist Calvin Trillin explained in a 1991 article, “The itch of a chigger bite is equal to approximately seven milomoses…” which you can read more about here: http://tinyurl.com/ykqjmds
Now if you’ll excuse me please…
January 24th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
We’re in your TAH, crushing your isolationist dreams?
I have to say that from what I’ve seen, anarchists and socialists usually hate each other. Which is the one thing I can say speaks well for anarchists..I will also say that not everyone who’s in a march with ANSWER is “in a march with ANSWER”. I once was in the same march as an ANSWER contingent before I had a clue who they were. Other vets said, “hey, we’re marching against the war” so I did. Doesn’t always mean what you think it does.
But in all reality, Kokesh has always been a Paulian.
January 24th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Kokesh won’t be the last of the anti-war veterans to try and pull a John F’N Kerry. Jonn, glad you are keeping them accountable for their past actions; so Americans will know the truth before voting for these shitbirds.
January 24th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
AS said: I will also say that not everyone who’s in a march with ANSWER is “in a march with ANSWER”.
That’s a bit disingenuous I think.
While I suppose it would be possible to stumble across a group of people, somewhere, and be misled as to their purpose – I’d think the signs and tee shirts would be a clue? I’ve been to several ANSWER events and never had the slightest doubt about who they were and what they were doing. That’s only anecdotal evidence since I haven’t been to EVERY ANSWER event, but you might see why I’m skeptical.
That kinda loops back to your observation that anarchists and socialists usually hate each other.
It’s been said that politics makes for strange bedfellows. ANSWER might even be a good case on point, but there are also historical references aplenty.
January 24th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
kinda sounds like some of the Germans tried after WWII…I didn’t know…
Yeah…sure…
January 24th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Army Sergeant, I like your argument that “not everyone who’s in a march with ANSWER is “in a march with ANSWER.” I would also say that not everyone who is seving in the US Army is “in the US Army”.
January 24th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Well, this on ANSWER’s March 20 March on Washington:
“In addition to the ANSWER Coalition, the March 20th Planning Committee meeting was attended by representatives of the Alliance For Global Justice, Anti-War College, Dignity (co-founded and represented by Cynthia McKinney), Goucher Alumni for People’s Solidarity, Iraq Veterans Against the War, March Forward!, Muslim Alliance in North America, Muslim American Society Freedom, National Assembly to End the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, National Committee to Free the Cuban Five, National Council of Arab Americans, National Lawyers Guild, Peace of the Action and World Can’t Wait”.
So, AS, if you did it once, like Ponsdorf said, and you were misled, that’s understandable. Ever marched with ANSWER again? Gonna march with them on March 20th? IVAW endorses this gathering of millions(sarc/off), so I assume at least 60 or 70 of them will be there.
And, actually, I think that anyone who’s in a march with ANSWER is actually in a march with ANSWER. But, that’s just me. YMMV.
January 24th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Bottom line–New Mexico isn’t Mars. Kokesh may get a few votes, but most of the people there see through his bullshit, and the more he speaks, the more see through it.
January 25th, 2010 at 12:39 am
Sounds like we should be supporting this guy who is running against Kokesh for the nomination.
http://www.mullinsforcongress.com/about.html
January 25th, 2010 at 1:33 am
I don’t understand why you guys can’t find something useful to do to acually straighten this country out instead of continuing to spout off about things of which you have no firsthand knowledge and experience.
For example, why are none of you showing any concern for things that have been posted on Blackfive.net, the Warrior Legacy Foundation, and on Jim Hanson’s blog about INTERPOL and what may potentially be looming on the horizon with the ICC, i.e., the legitimate concern that Obama might sign the US onto the ICC. Do you not understand what that could mean? If you do, why aren’t you discussing that instead?
I’d like to discuss it as I’m very concerned about the future of our national sovereignty and security, but I don’t have anyone here to discuss it with because you all want to sit there and waste your words and energy on things you have no actual knowledge about and passing judgement on me instead of seeking solutions to the very serious problems that have been identified by those who do. (See my blog at http://seasonedgoddess.blogspot.com/
If you guys aren’t on top of this and don’t care, then who are you – people with NO firsthand, inside knowledge or experience – to sit there in judgement of my intentions and character based on my prior activities as an antiwar activist? Or for that matter, Adam Kokesh’s.
As it happens, I actually happen to have a clue or two about they way things really are because I’ve actually been there, unlike yourselves. It didn’t bother me in the least to march side by side with people whose political views I abhor. I’m not a government agent (anymore), but I spent two of my eight years of active duty service working in a semi-covert status, so I pretty well got that way of life ingrained into me, whether I wanted to or not. It seemed pretty normal to me, actually. Yes, I’ve been against the war; no, I’m not a communist or socialist. In fact, I’m very concerned. Why aren’t you? (Jonn, this post is not directed toward you, but to your responders, so please don’t be offended.)
What do I have to do to get you guys to wake up? Or should I throw the towel in and write you guys off as completely hopeless? Probably the latter. You don’t even recognize an ally who is standing beside. No wonder this country’s such a mess.
In the interest of civil public discourse, all expletives were deleted from these comments prior to posting.
January 25th, 2010 at 4:27 am
Debra Clark said, in part:I don’t understand why you guys can’t find something useful to do to acually straighten this country out instead of continuing to spout off about things of which you have no firsthand knowledge and experience.
I don’t know you, and I might visit your blog, but just now your righteous indignation is trying. You presume to ‘know’ what this lot has first hand knowledge of and experience with?
You might want to consider examining your blogging TTP (at least) to see if a less pompous approach might be of benefit.
Speaking only for myself; I think Ron Paul is a loon, but even a stopped clock (analog) is right twice a day. I have met Matt, UJ and others from the WLF. I’m even a member.
Lastly, you tend to confuse your opinion with fact… about a number of things. That does make discussion difficult. A full-tilt evangelical preacher isn’t the best teacher of comparative religion.
January 25th, 2010 at 5:56 am
That’s funny, because I feel that’s exactly the approach all of you take toward me, regardless of how reasonable and polite I try to be. I feel that many of those here are constantly in attack mode when I’m trying to communicate and after a while, I just get frustrated and pissed off and that’s what comes out.
January 25th, 2010 at 8:13 am
I don’t think the national org has endorsed them, given we’re pulling a separate action at the same time.
But hey. I could be mistaken, especially given the current makeup of the board.
No, I’m not going to be there, I hate ANSWER and the PS+L that they associate with. I marched once at the front of their march, in Sep 2007, where any signs were IVAW and I was surrounded only by vets. I’m not going to do it again.
And when you join the US Army, you know what you’re joining and you even swear an oath to it. When you happen to be walking together with ANSWER, that’s not the case.
January 25th, 2010 at 8:21 am
Debbie: I agree with you on the ICC and other avenues that would put our soldiers in real legal danger at the whims of world body morons that can think of nothing better than to put many of our troops on trial for alleged “war crimes”. I think it’s a travesty that our own C-I-C is more than willing to put our troops in that position.
However, I’m not a Kokesh fan, not because of his stances right now, but because of the absolute stupid crap that has flowed out of his piehole in the recent past. I don’t consider him good for congress, not do I consider him good for the country. But that’s just my opinion and only mine.
January 25th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Adam is also squirming his way into the 912 group, a group started by Glenn Beck. I became aware of this after a couple of people sent me emails and I saw some ‘Tweets’ asking people to check him out that were also linked back to the 912 Movement.
Each time I saw one of them I tried to send people over here to read up on Mr Kokesh and also tried to squash their enthusiam.
It seems some people are merely grabbing on to any fresh face that appears on the political schene, and the Ron Paul supporters seem to be the most hard headed.
Anyway folks, be aware he does have his advocates out there. A lot of folks view Mr Kokesh as some sort of Ron Paul lite, and just because he is a veteran running on the Republican you still owe it to yourself to check them out.
I got into a little pissing match with one in GA last election cycle named Doug Heckman. He was running on the Democrat ticket, but he was definetly anti war to the point of being anti military. I did the background and let him know. He really went into the gutter at which time I just hit the ignore button, but kept an eye on him. If I thought he was going to get elected I would have been glad to scream from the rooftops and make people aware of his progressive views.
January 25th, 2010 at 11:20 am
Jonn,
You should forward your post to Napolitano. He needs to do his homework before he treats an assclown like Kokesh with kid gloves.
January 25th, 2010 at 11:54 am
AS, glad to hear you say that. I kinda thought you’d back away from ANSWER, and the rest of that crowd. Anything that Cynthia McKinney is involved with just has to be a sterling thing. Sarc/off
Deb, this post was about Kokesh and Napolitano, fwiw, I agree with you on the ICC and comrade 0. As to Interpol, that’s ambiguous at best. If Interpol is just an information clearing house, as the DoJ said, then why the secrecy over the executive order? But, that should be the subject of another post, it has nothing to do with Kokesh and Napolitano.
January 25th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Debra Clark, I read TAH almost every day but I don’t go to the comments all the time, so I’m not really familiar with you. But when you charge in here telling people how blind they are, how you’re trying to educate them, I don’t necessarily find that “reasonable and polite”. And marching with ANSWER? I don’t care how you try to spin it, as Mike Blankenship said, “Nuff said”.
January 25th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Debra Clark, I read TAH almost every day but I don’t go to the comments all the time, so I’m not really familiar with you. But when you charge in here telling people how blind they are, how you’re trying to educate them, I don’t necessarily find that “reasonable and polite”. And marching with ANSWER? I don’t care how you try to spin it, as Mike Blankenship said, “Nuff said”.
January 25th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Sorry about the double post, computer operator glitch. Maybe I need an ‘education’?
January 25th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Debra:
I believe most of those that post comments here, have been there, done that and got the t-shirt or have family that have. Kokesh is an ex-marine that the Republican party can do without as well as Ron Paul.
January 25th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Well Debra…..Yat Yas took the words right out of my mouth….you don’t know anyone here and what they’ve done and are doing right now, plus nobody owes you an explanation…stop pushing so hard and you might start getting along….
January 25th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Funny story… several years back the Navy was launching a new destroyer at Bath Iron Works. Everytime they do this, the local anti-war/military/Israel/whatever nut jobs show up. This time, they were being coordinated by ANSWER.
I and a couple friends decided to have some fun. The ANSWER folks showed up first, plain as day with them each wearing a red beret. Go figure, eh? One guy asked them if they were all ex-airborne guys, and the head female looked like she bit down on a turd.
Anyway, I introduced myself and asked if they were here to help “Stop Bush’s Jew-backed oil war?” Their eyes lit up and they said yes! The other two guys and I then got all excited and said “Great!” and allowed as we were there to help them. we said that “Our KKK Chapter had decided to show up and be in solidarity with them, since it was Jews funding the war”.. etc, etc, etc.
You should have seen the color drain from their faces. We said that several truckloads of our boys were due any minute, and those ANSWER folks picked up their signs, puppets and moved their entire operation about 100 yards up the street so as not to be seen with us.
My God, but it was funny as all get out. Since they had abandoned their designated spot from which to protest, the cops let us have their place and told them to keep walking. I’ve never been so pleased in all my life. WE held up “GO NAVY” signs, and flew the US Flag and the Navy Jack, and thoroughly enjoyed the day.
It’s funny how ANSWER, and the other idiot leftists complain about Jews and Israel, but refuse to associate with the KKK or Aryan Nation, etc. You’d think they would, since they all have more in common than differences.
Ah well… if you want more good ideas, visit Protest Warrior sometime. Learn to use the idiot leftist’s own tactics against them.
Respects,
January 25th, 2010 at 6:25 pm
AW1 Tim,
I really like that Navy Jack. I believe that is just about the coolest military flag I have ever seen.
V/R
Debra
January 25th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
AW1 Tim, that is one of the funniest stories I’ve read and a hell of a great trick.
How can anyone protest the launching of an American Warship. It “coughs” hurts to say that other than an amtrac in the water, the most beautiful vessels to watch underway are those of the Navy and Coast Guard. We have a used Carver at a marina on Harbor Island and on the weekends enjoy watching the Navy and Coast Guard operate in San Diego Harbor. Then again my father was retired Navy and my oldest brother was an airdale on the USS Connstellation.
January 25th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Like I said, Protest Warrior has some good stuff. Though the site hasn’t been updated for a couple years. many of the signs and posters are still accessible.
http://www.protestwarrior.com/
Respects,
January 26th, 2010 at 1:18 am
Well, AW1, it doesn’t personally appeal to me, but thank you anyway. I still like the Navy Jack though.
I’m curious what year and where you went through AW school.
V/R
January 26th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
if being in a march that answer is in means you are the same as them do all the teapartiers support larouche and think obama is hitler?
or do they just share the common goals of the march? hopefully nuff said.
January 26th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Wait a minute, that logic fails miserably. If Answer is the sponsor of a parade, and someone marches in it, it implies that the marcher identifies with the group. But the logic does not extend the other way. For instance, a Veterans Day parade. Marching in it implies you support the aims of the larger body, but the veterans day parade organizing committee doesn’t usually vet every position of each individual marcher, right?
As for your thing with teapartiers. The idea on them is limited national leadership. If the Larouchites show up, it doesn’t imply that the tea partiers endorse the Larouchites.
And, I really don’t think you believe that either.
January 26th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Put another way, if I marched in a parade supporting gay marriage, does that imply I support gay marriage, or that the gay marriage folks support outting phony veterans on a blog?
Occam’s razor applies.
January 27th, 2010 at 1:10 am
Debra, I attended AW “A” school when it was located at Millington, TN, in 1976. August, I believe. Long time ago, though. I can get exact dates if you need them, but it’ll take a day or two while I dig though some boxes.
January 27th, 2010 at 1:44 am
AW1, oh no, don’t do that. What I really wanted to know was just what year it was and what base. Obviously they moved the AW school, and all the navy aviation technical schools, to Pensacola at some point in time, though I don’t really even know the history to know off-hand what year that was.
It was in 1976 when I went active in the Army (on Deleyed Entry in 1975), so we must be about the same age.
Well, email me if you like and I’ll tell you more about why I was curious. (I can be emailed at debbie.clark7 at gmail.com)
January 27th, 2010 at 2:10 am
TSO dear, let me explain things to you. The overwhelming majority of the people who participate in protests sponsored by ANSWER do not subscribe to their ideology or goals. I have seen antiwar protesters literally booing ANSWER speakers at antiwar rallies. It is well known within the peace movement that the communists are better than anybody at organizing stuff. I could only wish that libertarians could get their shit together like that. But by no means whatsoever does the group of people who show up at a march organized by ANSWER, or that ANSWER is involved in, share a common ideology. Even among the different Communist groups, there are divisions and differences in the ideologies; that’s why they have so many different left-wing groups. And the groups are not entirely left-wing anyway. A few libertarians would show up sometimes at large protests in DC; sometimes even an occasional Republican or two would show up with a sign identifying himself as a Republican against the war. Granted those might be exceptions to the overwhelmingly left presence, but their presence has been there nonetheless. There is no one voice and nobody I have ever known of within the peace movement thinks that you agree with ANSWER just because you march in a protest sponsored by them. What is assumed if you participate in an antiwar march is that you are marching AGAINST the war. That is all; nothing more. As you said, Occam’s Razor applies.
I should also say, however, that as time went on and I learned more about the way things really are, I did reach a point where I finally just would not attend any more protests sponsored by ANSWER and I would just outright tell my fellow VFP members in my own chapter that I’m not going because it’s sponsored by ANSWER. However, truthfully, that decision didn’t really amount to anything in the larger picture, though, because the various factions of the hard left permeate everything within the antiwar movement; there is no escaping it. Trying to escape the communist presence in the antiwar movement would be like a Republican tea partier trying to escape the libertarians and Ron Paul supporters at a tea party, when in fact it is the libertarians and Ron Paul supporters, like the communists in the antiwar movement, who are the very ones behind organizing it in the first place.
As I’m sure you must know, there are actually two major coalitions of which ANSWER is one and United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ) is the other. I’m not going to even attempt to explain the history behind the two, but I will say that there was one year, 2005, when there was a major national protest in Washington DC on September 24 in which both ANSWER and UFPJ were the sponsoring coalitions. It was a humongous protest (estimates of a quarter million and more, though CNN said a hundred thousand, which even I thought was too low of an estimate) and the march itself is what in the Army we would call FUBAR. Being only a lowly person in the antiwar movement, I never really did know what the cause of the problems all were, but the streets were so jammed up and no one moving anywhere for hours, it was horrible. And while I personally never made it to the rally to listen to the speakers (I was very busy networking), I heard somewhere that the speakers were all arranged by ANSWER (in other words, they all sucked), even though UFPJ was supposedly the other sponsoring coalition. I was pissed off about the whole march because I felt that the military groups should lead the march, but of course, the communist and socialist organizers had other ideas. Everything behind their banners, of course; that’s what it’s all about (to them). I think it was after that march when I came to the conclusion that this arrangement was not ever going to meet my needs as a dissenting American.
Veterans For Peace and all the military-related antiwar groups (IVAW, MFSO, Gold Star Families for Peace, and maybe also VVAW, though I’m not completely sure about that one) are part of UFPJ, not ANSWER. I have never subscribed to either one, myself; I merely used VFP as an organizing tool to protest the war. (You might be interested to know that the other vet who I originally hooked up with as I was trying to organize the veterans, was actually a libertarian Navy jet pilot who served two tours in Vietnam, and his son a jet pilot who served multiple tours in Iraq.) So initially, I thought things might be promising. Of course, that’s not the direction things went in. Well, I’m digressing. What I meant to say was that, besides that small bit of place where I felt I really fit in, there was always a very uneasy alliance there regarding my participation in antiwar organizing.
In local organizing in Atlanta, other local antiwar leaders pretty much knew, I think, that I was a libertarian and wasn’t really part of them; only that I was very upset about the war and very against it. We NEVER discussed politics or ideology; only what we shared in common in our opposition to the war, and we only focused on what was immediately at hand in organizing, not what our various political philosophies might be.
In addition to not discussing political differences (such as noting that socialists/communists and libertarians typically hate the political ideology of the other), we did also practice graceful social skills and kindness toward one another. But again, I did ultimately experience this as an uneasy temporary alliance.
Well, these are some of my general impressions. No doubt if Ward Reilly reads this, he will completely disagree with everything I just said and deny that there is any significant communist element within the antiwar movement at all. Ha.
Now about marching in a Veterans Day Parade. I have experience with that. My VFP chapter in Atlanta began marching in the Atlanta Veterans Day Parade in 2006, and marched again in 2007. By Veterans Day of 2008 I had moved to another state and was no longer a VFP member, so I wasn’t there. Political ideology had nothing to do with our voluntary participation in the parade. We were vets and we wanted to be there. The first year, we conducted what was seen by others as a protest within the Veterans Day Parade. Unbeknownst to us (at that time), this apparently caused a major scandal in Atlanta.
The following year, OMG….I couldn’t begin to tell you what Marvin Meyers, the president of the Georgia Veterans Day Association of Atlanta, put me through as I tried every last shred of diplomacy that I possibly knew of just trying to smooth things over and get my VFP chapter into the parade. Oh, it was wrenching. In all my eight years of serving on active duty in the US Army, I was never yelled at so much as what I was yelled at by Mr. Marvin Myers about what my VFP chapter did in the parade the previous year. (We actually had some very good conversations throughout all that, too, though, talking about our kids and all, and also about the war in Iraq. He’s actually a pretty good guy; he just had to make sure I fully understood what a major problem we caused, saying the Marines were threatening to not come for the parade if we showed up again and everything.)
Finally, at practically the last hour, the Veterans Day Parade Association voted us into the parade in the face of VERY strong opposition. Stipulations were laid down and we were put under very tight control, which we did comply with.
I might also add that as the Atlanta Veterans For Peace chapter marched past the reviewing stand, which contained retired General Russel Honore, who was the Parade Grand Marshal, everyone in the reviewing stand stood up and applauded us. Yes, sir, in 2007, the Atlanta VFP was applauded by General Honore at the Atlanta Veterans Day Parade. I am not making this up.
However, don’t even ask me what the right wing radio talk show host in Atlanta, Kim Peterson, said about us on his radio show the following Monday morning. I was at work and didn’t listen to it, except for very briefly, but what I heard about it was absolutely wretched. If the Vietnam vets who were my superiors in the US Army thought that Jane Fonda was Satan walking the earth, well, according to Kim Peterson, my Atlanta VFP chapter (I am the founder of the chapter) must have been Satan’s mother.
But I still have to say, all the harsh criticism was well worth it. What was most worthwhile of all – besides the dizzying realization that there was applause coming from the reviewing stand as we passed by – were the grateful veterans who came to us after the parade, thanking us over and over for being a presence in the Veterans Day Parade. It was a wonderful thing.
One other thing I’d like to mention. When we marched in the 2007 Veterans Day Parade, the Patriot Guard Riders were directly behind us on their motorcycles and they were very respectful toward us. In fact, one of them, George Jones, gave an interview to a local progressive news publication and he was quoted as saying about us,
“They are standing up for what they believe in. They’re not against the government or against defending our country. They more or less feel the war [against Iraq] is frivolous and that we should bring our boys home,”
You can read about the Atlanta VFP’s participation in the Veterans Day Parade at the following two links – the first one is an article that was published about us prior to the parade with a picture in it from the previous year’s parade, and the second link was the article that was done about us in the parade, with a pic from that parade, and with the foregoing Patriot Guard Rider quote:
http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.com/news/0251.html (pre-parade article about our problems and pic from previous year)
http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.com/news/0254.html (2007 Veterans Day Parade)
And I’m sorry I write so much, but I just don’t know how to explain all these things to you in only a few words.
January 27th, 2010 at 7:36 am
No way I am reading all that, but I reject the first paragraph entirely.
If you march in a parade, then you support the goal of the group. Or, at least you abrogate any denying that you support it. You can’t march with the Klan and claim you did it because you support Halloween, and you can’t march with Communists and then claim to be a Constitutional Defender.
January 27th, 2010 at 7:40 am
Well, TSO, you’re wrong.
January 27th, 2010 at 8:54 am
Huh? You’re kidding, right? Wrong? If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. Period. You don’t see a whole lot of straight politicians marching in Gay Pride parades regardless of their support for gay rights because of the implications of walking down the street with some guy in a gimp suit getting cornholed on a float next to you by a guy wearing chaps and a Gestapo hat. They don’t march with them because marching with them implies that they are gay. No straight man wants to align himself with that fringe and if they do, well, they probably smell pretty musky on their backsides if you catch my drift.
You go to a clan rallies and take their side, you support the clan. You go to the Republican National Convention and cheer for Sarah Palin, you’re a Republican. You go to an alumni dinner without a date, you’re probably an alum. And if you hang out with anti-war douchebags… well, you get my drift.
January 27th, 2010 at 9:09 am
Debra Clark said: Well, TSO, you’re wrong.
I did read your #56, and found it confusing: because the various factions of the hard left permeate everything within the antiwar movement; there is no escaping it.
Yet earlier in the same paragraph you said: I did reach a point where I finally just would not attend any more protests sponsored by ANSWER
While I do respect your decision I am puzzled as to why you’ve expended so much time and energy defending your earlier participation?
Looks to me as though you’re admitting it was a mistake. Pretty much everyone here has been saying that and you wrote pages calling us ignorant for saying so?
We already knew that the anti-war groups are/were permeated with communist types.
January 27th, 2010 at 9:13 am
Now I see why people here act like I just popped in. Nobody reads what I write even when it’s just a few sentences. I already addressed the issue of lying down with dogs and getting fleas. To recap, I never said I didn’t get fleas. What I deny is that I’m a dog or turned into one.
January 27th, 2010 at 9:28 am
Sniper, thanks so much for explaining this, in less than 4000 words, or lebenty seven paragraphs of verbiage. Succinctly put.
January 27th, 2010 at 10:03 am
When someone says “TSO, Dear” and then purports to tell me I am wrong and what I should think, I decline the opportunity to read anymore than 1 paragraph.
Brevity being the soul of wit and all that.
January 27th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
***Sigh***
January 27th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
The Sniper wrote, “You go to a clan rallies and take their side, you support the clan. You go to the Republican National Convention and cheer for Sarah Palin, you’re a Republican. You go to an alumni dinner without a date, you’re probably an alum. And if you hang out with anti-war douchebags… well, you get my drift.”
I didn’t go to antiwar rallies and take the side of left-wingers. I went to antiwar rallie and organized antiwar events to protest the war. To protest the war, not to protest the military. To protest the war, not to protest free market economics. To protest the war, not to protest the US Constitution. To protest the war, not to protest freedom. To protest the war, not to demand socialized medicine. I protested the war as a registered Republican, as a life member of the Libertarian Party, as a Constiutionalist, as a veteran, as a Christian, as a mother, as a grandmother, as a pro-lifer, as the mother-in-law of a ROTC student, and none of these things changed…except that the ROTC student is now a Navy pilot…and I have fallen silent about the war and am surrounded by military. But I still am who I am in my heart. Against the war, against communism and socialism, against overweening government, against socialized medicine, against anything that poses a threat to my family, to our freedom, and to our national soveriegnty…for life, for liberty, and for peace.
You may continue to insult me if you choose, however, I am not who you any of you say I am, and I am not going to respect your insults.
Jesus associated with prostitutes and tax collectors and was harshly criticized by the scribes and Pharisees for doing so. But the reality is that Jesus accepted them as they were and did not himself turn into a drunkard or glutton or prostitute, as they alledged.
And TSO….I had NO idea you were so sensitive. I’m here in the Deep South and nary a day goes by that I don’t get called honey, darling, sweetheart, sweetie, dearie, or miss, at age almost 52, by both men and women (by more women than men, actually – it’s a Southern thang). It is the way of the South and though I’m from the Midwest originally, I guess I’ve been here in this part of the country waaa-aay too long.
Please accept my humble apologies for offending you, TSO, by calling you “TSO, Dear” instead of “Dear TSO.” I actually intended “TSO, Dear” as a Southern term of endearment which I have now stricken from my vocabulary to never speak again!
I’m also very sad that nobody appreciates my literary efforts. I enjoy writing, but not if nobody enjoys my words.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:35 am
And what’s so bad about IVAW? Do you really believe we should be policing the world?? That’s not what our constitution says and you know it….if you’ve read it. It’s time to wake up and get someone (like Mr. Kokesh) who knows the constitution and actually gives a damn about our country.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:49 am
Just so I’m clear, “Mr.” Kokesh was kicked out of the USMC for trying to sneak home an illegal war trophy (a pistol he supposedly purchased, if I remember correctly), in contravention of military law. Sounds to me as if “Mr.” Kokesh has a problem understanding essential principles like “hey, asshole, don’t try to sneak home war trophies or they’ll court martial you.”, so I’m thinking his deep comprehension of the Constitution might be a tad questionable…I’m just sayin’.
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:51 am
Gina–funny how you extrapolate protecting our national security interests to becoming world police. Of course, in your world, the Navy would stop at the 12-mile limit.
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Debra, when you start a screed with “let me explain it to you” I hope you realize what a pompous, ego-centric, condescending fool you make yourself look to be. If you want people to listen to you and take your views seriously then arrogance is not the way to go about it.
Kokesh is a POS of the first order. This site has exposed him for what he is seveal times: an opportunistic weasel that is in it for himself. He has no core beliefs. He melds them to shape the circumstances to get himself ahead. I have confidence that the good people of New Mexico will see through this jacka** and elect his opponent.
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Claymore you are correct. He was busted down in rank, tried to go back to Iraq and The Corp said “don’t call us we will call you” then ended up asking him to leave. Funny it was at just that time he “discovered” his anti-war beliefs. Kinda sounds like a little kid mad at someone and trying for a little revenge.
By the way – he is not a Marine as much as he tries to claim it. They told him to go away and washed their hands of him. The Corp no longer claims him as one of their own.
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:52 pm
JP, thank you for your comments and advice. However, I have never had any hope of anyone here listening to me about anything in the first place. For the most part, I feel I’ve been treated with extreme arrogance, disrespect, and rudeness by the majority of the people here since I first began posting here last spring, regardless of how polite I might be. I can think of few times in my life where such a steady stream of contempt and abuse has been hurled my way. In this particular case, in the comment of mine you are complaining about, I was taken far too seriously when I joking addressed TSO in that manner. Sorry you are so humorless. It is abundantly clear to me that there is never going to be any communication here regardless of what I say or what words I choose and I’m really very tired of the never ending negativity and criticism. So I will look for some other source of entertainment now as this is definitely not working out for me.
February 4th, 2010 at 7:57 am
“The people to fear are not those who disagree with you, but those who disagree with you and are too cowardly to let you know. ”
A quote I have always found appropriate in these situations Deb.
Many of the people here are of your and my age group and when you say “anti-war”, they don’t see what you see, they see 1968. You are not battaling some superficial idea, your attempting to overcome a very real and viscarel feeling, and that feeling isn’t a positive one. I have no idea why I’m wading into this because I’m not a fan of the anti-war movement. Hell, I have a very nice scar on the back of my head where I got clocked with a ketchup bottle thrown by a protester after I got back from Desert Storm. But you seem a decent sort and have tried to articulate your position so I thought a more nuanced approach might prove more productive.
BTW: I’m a man of the South, sweetie and honey are just fine by me darling.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Thank you for your kind efforts, Finrod. Much appreciated. However, I feel the problems are greater than merely being disagreed with. I’ve been disagreed with by many people who I continue to be friends, associates, and family members with. I’ve complained of this before to no avail. It is just the fundamental disrespect and the whole depersonalizing approach that I find disturbing.
There is another quote, “It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you’re not.” In my case, however, here at TAH, for the most part, I am neither hated for what I am, nor loved for what I’m not, but rather hated for what I’m not. And then slammed again when I try to show who I am am.
Again, I think I need to find another source of entertainment. Nonetheless, I appreciate your concern, Finrod, and I’m very sorry to hear about the ketchup bottle. It was probably a communist anarchist sort. Where did this take place? I can’t imagine that somebody would be so stupid as to do that at an airport.
February 4th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
It was a parade. Really! We were in San Fran doing a parade after Desert Storm. We had a Bradley, M1, M88, Hummers, a M109 and a M113, all painted desert tan. We road down some main street and it was the most bizaare experience of my life. One side of the street (left side oddly enough) was pro folks, the otherside was the anti crowd. As we rolled down the street waving and such one side cheered the other threw stuff. A guy dressed as a priest tried to chain himself to the 88 as it was moving so we had to stop. When we stopped a cop ran up to my brad and yelled something. I was in the commander’s hatch and had to pull off my cvc helmet and bend over to hear him over the racket. It was then that I felt something really hard hit me in the back of the head. It was a Heinz glass ketchep bottle. It didn’t even break till it hit the street, which in retrospect is kinda funny. Seems a very enthusiastic young woman had thrown it from a second floor window. I had to take their word for it, I was too busy getting 8 stitches put in my head. I haven’t been to San Francisco since.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:45 am
Finrod,
That’s really horrible that the other side threw stuff at you all. They should have all been arrested and charged with assault and battery.
San Francisco is a little extreme for my taste. I marched in an antiwar march there one time in 2003, I think it was, and there was a guy marching near me who was absolutely stark naked and the police were right there, acting like it was a perfectly normal, everyday occurance. All I could think of was that this would NEVER go down in Atlanta. He wouldn’t have made it half a block.
On the other hand, I always found it interesting that the commander of the American Legion post in San Francisco – or a past commander anyway – was an antiwar activist, LOL (though absolutely not one who would in any manner approve of antiwar activists throwing things at war veterans – I’m shocked to hear about this, actually).
I’m also sorry to hear about the ketchup bottle. That is really horrible. But how could you have wound up with 8 stitches if it didn’t break on your head? Seems to me that it would have taken a sharp edge to cause a laceration like that. Did you get knocked out when it happened? Do you ever wonder if you had any TBI from the incident? (I wonder sometimes if I did from getting kicked in the head by a calf when I was about 7 years old.)
Well, I hope the lady who did it was arrested for aggravated assault. Was she?
February 5th, 2010 at 7:10 am
I was told she was arrested but I didn’t even see her. I think the bottom edge caught me and good genetics have given me a very hard head so there is a greater chance that such a blow would have a positive effect as much as a negative one. I wasn’t knocked out as I was entirely too busy cussing at the top of my lungs when I felt that nasty warm wet feeling on the back of my neck and realized a brand new nomex suit was being ruined.
February 5th, 2010 at 7:45 am
I can’t believe this is still going on!
I’ll make it short and ask a question:
Has anyone here actually looked up the sponsors of the Veterans Day parades, or St Paddy’s Day parades when they went to them?
Also, Sniper, I’ve marched in marches for gay rights without being gay. Though TSO did think I was a gay man at first.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Trust me, AS is not gay. Judging by the dirty e-mails she keeps sending me, I’d say she’s got great taste. hahaha j/k
February 5th, 2010 at 11:12 am
Yeah, I’ll admit that I thought Army Sergeant was a gay man before I found out she is a woman.
February 7th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Finrod (#76), I like your positive outlook on your injury. I’m sure that must be the case with me, also.
About Army Sergeant being mistaken by Jonn and TSO for a gay man, that reminds me of a gay male friend of mine – and he is totally gay without a bi-bone in his body (LOL, unintended pun…) – we are kind of soul mates, in a strange way, and he told me one time that either I should have been a guy or he should have been straight. It does kinda make me wonder what went wrong though…
February 7th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
OhhhhhhKaaaay… Wow, 80 comments (about 30% on subject LOL) and since I was just sitting here being bored while waiting to see N.O. be humiliated (joking… don’t really care. I’m just watching it for the commercials) I have slogged thru every one. After doing so, I have some thoughts and would like to clarify something.
1: Deb needs to be forced to respond using one finger on a sticky keyboard. It will encourage her to be brief.
2: Deb, you may not realize it, but I was one of the PGR members riding behind your group in 07 and you have no idea of the comments we made among ourselves about your group’s “message”. Suffice to say… We would have rather followed the horses. The only reason we didn’t complain is the same reason we ignore the Westboro shitbirds… The parade was not about you, and we refused to MAKE it about you. Don’t mistake our lack of protest over your group’s participation as approval of your presence.
3: (and last) Koosh will never withstand any real scrutiny of his actions. I doubt he has a snowball’s chance in Hell, but I agree we must be aggressive in pointing out his past to make sure.
Oh… and Fin? It’s possible to get a head lac from a blunt object if it hits you hard enough. Sorry that happened to you Brother. I would like to extend to you a belated “Welcome Home”.
You may now resume your regular programing.
February 7th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Hey Ray, we were just happy you all didn’t kick our ass.
February 7th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
PGR?
Pro Ghey Rodeo?
February 7th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
ROTFL! I’ll leave that to Ray to respond..
February 7th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Hey dutchboy, pretty keyboard brave there. You are welcome to come to any Patriot Guard Riders event and make that suggestion.
Just be sure you have good health insurance.
February 7th, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Hey, Ray,
Come on down to Colorado Springs and look me up. You can find me on AKO as I am active duty Army with just a few years under my belt. Try to grow a sense of humor, dumbass.
February 8th, 2010 at 7:09 am
OK… Try to say something funny and I’ll try to laugh.
February 9th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
LOL…
February 18th, 2010 at 6:05 am
Deb, After reading your blog (quite a good one imho) and re-reading your comments in that light I apologize for my comments if you were offended by them. I am a libertarian myself as well as an Army Vet and find myself much closer to your point of view than I had thought. I, however, cannot allow myself to be seen with anti-war groups as they seem to be comprised primarily of anti-military leftists that truly do not like our country. You are able to put that part of their message aside and concentrate on the anti-war part but I cannot. I was unsure of whether we should have gone into Iraq without a formal declaration of war as our constitution requires but the fact that we are they renders this argument moot. Haphazardly pulling out as this administration and the anti-war left wants would lead to catastrophic consequences to the entire region and more importantly our national interest. After attending a number of anti-war rallies it was clear that the groups such as ANSWER, Code Pink and others of that ilk were motivated primarily by hatred of President Bush which is evidenced by the lack of protests and silly stunts such as crashing Congressional Hearings that were commonplace during his term in office. This unreasoning hatred was exacerbated by hatred for our military and those that served in it. I was unsure of Iraq but one thing I am very clear on: I support our men and women in the armed forces wherever they go and will not do anything that would undermine their moral and these rallies were designed with just that purpose in mind. That is why is could never stand or be seen with them. Mr. Kokesh had no such problem. From attempting to enter a military base in Germany to try and convince our soldiers to go awol to his marching with these nutcases to the silly IVAW “winter soldier” hearings redux his every action was designed to undermine our nations support for our military and to raise himself above others for the purpose of selfish ego-building. When the movement dissipated as was inevitable when the Bush Administration was out of office he distanced himself from it and latched onto Dr. Paul. That Dr. Paul would allow this is disappointing. He now is using this association to insinuate himself into the Tea Party Movement as this is now the “hot thing” that he sees as a way to get ahead. When and if the tea parties cool down look for him to jump ship into the next thing. He has no core beliefs other than what will get him ahead. If he was honest he would run as either a libertarian or an independent not masquerade as a Republican which is another attempt of his to ride the wave of anti-democrat feeling sweeping the nation and that will bring about historic shifts in the House and Senate this fall. Group to Group to Group is what he is and has been doing. Others may be able to look past his anti-military rants, his other-than-honorable discharge, his being striped of rank and his self-serving opportunism but I cannot. If he was unable to serve in our nations military honorably then I have no use for him. His later actions “sealed the deal” for me.
February 18th, 2010 at 6:08 am
Dutch: you are free to come to PGR Missions here in NC also. I would advise you, however, to not throw around your take on the initials but if you feel the need to then it might be interesting.
February 20th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
JonP, thank you for your response and nice remarks about my blog. Believe me, I completely understand your point of view regarding the antiwar movement.
In an attempt to avoid writing a long comment here, I refer you to my latest blog post that you inspired, http://tinyurl.com/yzl3b7o
I would also like to add, as I’ve mentioned before, one of the main guys who helped me get the Atlanta chapter of VFP started is a libertarian and Vietnam vet. Because I enjoyed such support and encouragement from him, I actually didn’t realize back then how rare and unusual that was in the overall scheme of things. So it seemed pretty normal to me in that context in my relatively protected bubble in the beginning, before I really got my feet wet and fully immersed myself in the larger movement…which was very disillusioning.
I think that the path a person goes down is often very strongly connected with the environment in which one finds oneself. At that time, besides that I was working in the civilian world at a university completely apart from the military, I also was in the Atlanta area where there is a deep heritage of civil rights and widespread acceptance of dissent and opposition to war stemming from the legacy of Martin Luther King, Jr. Indeed, we often held press conferences on or adjacent to the grounds of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center (depending on the mood of the park police on any given day…heh), which I’m sure is still occurring, though probably in a smaller way, and enjoyed the support of a number of prominent black ministers and leaders, some of whom were affiliates of Martin Luther King, Jr. Finding myself in this environment, combined with having found a very honorable Vietnam vet who was a libertarian like myself in strong disagreement with the politicians who started this war, led really very naturally to my involvement in the antiwar movement. In my current environment and family circumstances, the same simply would not have happened; my disagreement with the war would have emerged in a far different way, a more quiet and restrained way. No one operates in a complete vacuum; it is other people in one’s life who influence and shape one’s path.
I know that Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends,” and I agree with that, but there are also other ways of looking at the same thing in the total picture. Even that same phrase could be meant in two different ways. At the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center in Atlanta, there is a statue of Mahatma Gandhi, the originator of the words, “Be the change that you wish to see in the world.” He also said, “In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness.” He also said, “…peace, to be real, must be unaffected by outside circumstances.” I’m all about building bridges these days, not burning them.
Thank your for your nice comments. With my family being gone now and being alone, it was a nice birthday present for me after what was truly a challenging and long day at work that day.
March 9th, 2010 at 1:05 am
I know for a fact that at an event held for Rand Paul, I heard the Ran Paul people trying to keep Kokesh off the stage, Kokesh was practically screaming at these young volunteers then Kokesh ran up on stage anyway. They where screaming back stage at each other saying that they were going to get reamed for letting that guy by them. The MC of the event couldn’t believe that kokesh got on the stage and didn’t know his name to announce him. Don’t know if the judge knows kokeshs real story or not.
March 10th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
[...] running as a Republican candidate for Congress in New Mexico. And, believe it or not, he is getting positive exposure on at least one Fox News show. He has the backing of Ron Paul, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and the 9/12 [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
A call for help!
Some of you with more info on Kokesh should put some effort into his Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kokesh
For some reporters, Wikipedia is the first place they turn to bring them up to speed.
Keep in mind that you’ll need references.
March 10th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
What is the big deal with being antiwar? Maybe the war really is wrong. Maybe we could protect our country and our borders in other ways without killing 1 million Iraqi civilians. Okay, I’m sure some of you could care less about those civilians even though some may be helpless children.
What about our troops? Do you care about them? Do they really need to go over there whole and then come back in pieces mentally & emotionally committing suicide because they can’t bear the memories anymore and our govt is unwilling to give them what they need. Could this be why so many of our good men & women turn to drugs & drink? I thought you supported the troops. Why do you slander this one for the frailties of being mortal in the face of war?
What about the Depleted Uranium that is littered all over the ground & in the water? Oh that’s right. This is a casualty of war. Does it matter to you pro-war sheeple that children now and for generations in Iraq will be born with horribly disfiguring abnormalities?
Oh that’s right. It’s not about them. It’s about us. Then maybe it is important to you to remember that our men and women serving are also being exposed to this depleted uranium. That they will come home and have problems with infertility or even worse know the pain of having children that are so hideously deformed that people make jokes and say they look like space aliens. What about the soldiers’ health care needs as a result of this. I have heard that our govt that loves us so much that they would send our troops into these conditions, does not want to cover the care for the life long diseases of depleted uranium’.
Ah yes, our green government that with one hand wants to create green jobs while taxing the hell out of us with Cap N Trade, while the OTHER hand pollutes our same earth with depleted uranium.
March 10th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Depleted Uranium is just that: depleted uranium. And the 1 million civilian deaths? C’mon man, try doing some actual rese4arch instead of lip-synching the lies and myths from your leftist buddies.
It’s gone from laughable to pathetic watching you nimrods try and keep the DKOS talking points going. You’re all a bunch of tools, unable to see the truth right in front of your own faces.
Try lithium, I am told that it may actually help folks like you.
March 10th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
What about the Depleted Uranium that is littered all over the ground & in the water?
Thanks, that the best way to let me know that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. It saved me the time of reading the rest of your infantile regurgitation of anti-war talking points.
March 10th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
[...] running as a Republican candidate for Congress in New Mexico. And, believe it or not, he is getting positive exposure on at least one Fox News show. He has the backing of Ron Paul, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and the 9/12 [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Funny thing, they welded extra depleted uranium on my tank….then I handled hundreds of depleted uranium rounds. Some might consider me horribly disfigured but that was pre-uranium. Came home, got married, had children who are remarkably non-disfigured. All my old tanker buddies came home and had kids too. They are all above average kids, most likely because there fathers were in the military. No one commited suicide either….you on the other hand, are a tool…
March 10th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Jonn Lilyea Says:
“What about the Depleted Uranium that is littered all over the ground & in the water?”
“Thanks, that the best way to let me know that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. It saved me the time of reading the rest of your infantile regurgitation of anti-war talking points.
Thanks, that the best way to let me know that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. It saved me the time of reading the rest of your infantile regurgitation of anti-war talking points.”
What do you mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. Depleted Uranium has been used in munitions in the Gulf War and recently in “Operation Iraqi Freedom” and has been linked with an increase in birth defects.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-6266684-503543.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547681767408&ei=XgOYS5qCHoP-qAPM7a2cAg&q=depleted+uranium+iraq&hl=en&client=firefox-a#
If you are going to disagree can you at least say why or regurgitate some pro-war talking points? Otherwise it looks as though you haven’t really thought about it one way or the other.
If you have time to watch the video above kindly tell me which part of it regarding depleted uranium is bogus and why?
March 10th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
I guess you didn’t have time to read Old Tanker’s comment above. Please do. This is a milblog – all of our authors and most of our readers have real life experience in the drivel you try to pass off as facts.
March 10th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
I’m not finding peer reveiwed studies that suport that. CBS is not “peer reviewed” research, but this link is…..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15012023
March 10th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
Old Tanker
I am glad that you and your friends/family are healthy. You cannot deny that many soldiers do not comeback from war as lucky as you. Everybody is different and the experience you had in Iraq are not the same as what another soldier may have had. You cannot deny that many come back with mental/emotional issues including PTSD, some resulting in suicide.
Depleted Uranium is a toxic heavy metal and does have health issues associated with it just as lead or aluminum do.
In regards to your remarks about my being a tool could you please tell me for who or what. Henry Kissinger himself said, “Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” Are you sure that it is not our soldiers who are not the tools?
March 10th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Wow, you are a fahkin moron.
March 10th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
@JustHearSay: Funny, the only source I can find for that quote is;
Henry Kissinger, as quoted in Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW’s in Vietnam (1990) by Monika Jensen-Stevenson and William Stevenson, unidentified chapter/page
When you can source it, come back and show me. ‘k?
I’m glad you think it’s “luck” that brings soldiers back from war alive. Me? I credit our leadership.
Oh, and your idiot article about DU in Fallujah; since DU is an anti-armor round, how many al-Qaeda tanks do you think our troops faced in Fallujah? Are you just that gullible?
March 10th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Better look out, uranium is used as shielding for x-ray machines, in gyroscopes, and as balance weights. The only issues that might come from it is lung cancer found in some lab animals from breathing in the vapor. The only way to breath in vapor is when the round impacts armor……at that point breathing in the vapor is the least of your worries. Ordinance laying around the desert is not a threat. Both lead and aluminum can dissociate slightly in water because both are reactive with acids and water is acidic, at least the pure stuff falling from the sky (and no, not because of pollution) Uranium is not reactive to the weak acidity of water and won’t leach into ground water. This dumb animal does happen to hold degrees in chemistry and physics but to top it all off….I actually stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night too!
March 10th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Jonn Lilyea
I never said anything about “luck”. I don’t like the idea of any of our soldiers going to war and dieing for what I believe to be other peoples agendas. I can’t concretely source this quote, as I am sure is the case with may quotes that are made, which does not necessarily invalidate them.
However, I would like to direct you to the writings of Smedley Butler, a highly decorate Major General in the USMC, who wrote “War is a Racket”. His experiences and opinions that are expressed in his book reinforce the points Kissinger quote. The link below is an excerpt from the book and is available in reprint.
The book may 60+ years old and the people he speaks of are dead, the same shady interests are very much a live and well.
March 10th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Old Tanker
I do not think you or anyone else a dumb animal. I was merely restating a quote attributed to Henry Kissinger as a means to make the point that there are individuals that view people as resources to be exploited for their own purposes. Historically, many wars have been geo-political. It is the populace that is used as a means to that end. If such a high ranking US official who served as Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, and Nobel Peace Prize winner really said this it is important to question whose interests the decision makers are acting on behalf of.
March 10th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Jonn Lilyea
Sorry Forgot to post the link:
“War is A Racket” by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Major General Smedley D. Butler – USMC, Retired
http://www.warisaracket.com/
March 10th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Jonn Lilyea
I never said anything about “luck”.
“You cannot deny that many soldiers do not comeback from war as lucky as you.”
That was you right?
Old Tanker
I do not think you or anyone else a dumb animal. I was merely restating a quote attributed to Henry Kissinger
Except there is no real quote, someone made it up and attributed to an out-of-print book.
And you have to go back 70 years to find someone you can actually quote.
That, my friend, is a tool incarnate.
March 10th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
[...] just forget all about them, and there are apparently plenty who are willing to do that. Kokesh is now appearing on Fox News with Judge Napolitano. He’s been endorsed by the Republican Liberty Caucus, the 912 Project, [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
To “JustHearSay”…..you come by your name honest….you base all of your arguments on Hear Say and whatever the hell suits your agenda……if i had a nickel for everyone i’ve seen like you the past forty years….well you get my drift.
Try moving to Berkeley where you’ll find plenty of like-minded pukes to inflate your ego….nobody here wants to waste their time with your drivel….we’ve all been there, done that.
Keep up the great work Jonn.
March 10th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
[...] just forget all about them, and there are apparently plenty who are willing to do that. Kokesh is now appearing on Fox News with Judge Napolitano. He’s been endorsed by the Republican Liberty Caucus, the 912 Project, [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
[...] just forget all about them, and there are apparently plenty who are willing to do that. Kokesh is now appearing on Fox News with Judge Napolitano. He’s been endorsed by the Republican Liberty Caucus, the 912 Project, [...]
March 10th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Smell that? You smell that?
What?
Trolls, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of trolls in the morning. You know, one time we had a troll napalmed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn’t find one of ‘em, not one stinkin’ troll body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like…victory. Someday this Internet’s gonna end…
March 10th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
I’m not going to get involved in this debate, but I would just like to remind everyone that there was a time when people scoffed at the idea that there were health problems associated with Agent Orange. It was many years before the US government acknowledged the problem.
March 10th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
JustHearSay,
Making sure I have this right…..you dropped a link to back up your “scientific” (CBS, Dan..watermelon, ANG, Rather) assertions, I “dropped” one (peer reviewed) to refute. You then re-affirmed a dubiously attributed quote to Kissinger, then threw in a quote from Butler…..this refutes the science behind depleted Uranium??? Did I get all the redirections and strawmen right? BTW, I’m still not horribly disfigured and my “lil’ soldier” still stands at attention….
March 10th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Debra,
In the case of AO there was science to back it up that was being ignored. In this case, not so….yet…. I will not presume to make the assumption that future studies will not find something different, but I will say that there is nothing out there now….and depleted uranium has been around far longer than agent orange was. The goal of science is to study, make a hypothesis and continue to study. Time can show different results….after all, silicone breast implants are back on the market.
March 10th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
Old Tanker, good then, you agree with me that they need to do more studies on the safety of depleted uranium. Again, we are actually agreeing on something! Isn’t this amazing?!
March 10th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Debra,
I say yet because there will be many studies to come (some are ongoing) and the possibility exists that something may come of it…..HOWEVER… and I make sure to punctuate that, as time goes by it becomes far more difficult for these studies to become conclusive. People 1st exposed are getting older and will get sick with many illnesses that some will attribute to most anything. I give you my example above of silicone breast implants. There was never any evidence that silicone did anything and there is still none after all these years, which is why they are back on the market. It is very likely that more studies will only back up what is known….and believe me, there are ALOT of studies out there on DU. The fact that there are no lawsuits regarding it ought to tell you something….after all, there was no evidence about silicone and now Dow-Corning is still paying for lawsuits and still in bankruptcy…
March 10th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
But I have to point out that during our Post Deployment Health Assessment that one of the the things that was asked from us was that if we thought that we where ever exposed to depleted uranium.
Never been in a Bradly but do they use DU rounds for the cannon?
March 10th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Debra, put it another way–you see all the ambulance chasers going after mesothelioma and asbestosis patients? The lawsuits, etc? Were you aware that the effects of asbestos have been known for nearly 70 years now?
March 10th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Old Tanker,
I don’t really think that the situation with the silicone breast implants is a good example to compare depleted uranium to. There are many things once thought to be safe which most health-conscious people now reject as toxic based on the evidence available, even if not everyone agrees. Mercury amalgam fillings, for example.
Do you think it’s true that Iraq is planning to sue the US and Britain over use of depleted uranium?
Even if it is determined with absolute finality that it is safe to breathe depleted uranium dust without any healthy consequences (something which will never happen, but this is just a hypothetical), the fact still remains that there has been a substantial increase in birth defects and cancer in Iraqi children. What would you attribute that to primarily, if not depleted uranium?
March 10th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
NHSparky,
Or you could look at the previous use of lead paint in houses. Now lead paint is banned and there are all kinds of federal regulations concerning lead paint and lead dust because the science has proven it to be a health hazard. I’m not really up on that so much, but I do know that my college-educated daughter and son-in-law test for lead levels both in the homes they move into as well as have their children’s blood checked for the lead level.
March 10th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
Or then again, people could just be cashing in on the completely paranoid–I hear there’s a great market for it. Around here, it’s Radon testing and removal systems.
March 10th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
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March 10th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Well, NHSparky, people have got all sorts of health problems. I have lost count of the number of women I have known with breast cancer, some still living, some not. I think there are causes or at least contributing factors to these things. I’d like to live a long time so I can enjoy my grandchildren and great-grandchildren (well, I don’t have any great-grandchildren yet, but hopefully in about 20 years or so), so I like to look at things very closely and question. In my personal health and that of my family, I prefer to err on the side of safety. (Well, I also err sometimes on the side of weak self-discipline, but that is another issue, lol.)
March 10th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Old Tanker
Actually, there were 2 links. The CBS one was not intended as scientific merely that these birth defects are being reported. The 2nd is a more detailed report about other peoples opinions and experiences on the matter.
This article http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/apr/25/internationaleducationnews.armstrade states that during the 3 week conflict for Baghdad “between 1,000 and 2,000 tonnes of depleted uranium were used by the coalition”. If you lived there at that time and had to continue living there afterwards would you not be exposed to it at levels that were toxic?
What about all the reports of the huge jump in hideous birth defects since the war began? The link below is to wikipedia’s listing on DU. While wikipedia is obviously not a scientific discourse, it has lot’s of citations and footnotes for you to do your research.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#cite_note-gaurdian2003-6
The quotes were not to support my DU argument, which should be obvious. As I said earlier “I do not think you or anyone else a dumb animal. I was merely restating a quote attributed to Henry Kissinger as a means to make the point that there are individuals that view people as resources to be exploited for their own purposes. Historically, many wars have been geo-political. It is the populace that is used as a means to that end. If such a high ranking US official who served as Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, and Nobel Peace Prize winner really said this it is important to question whose interests the decision makers are acting on behalf of.”
The words of these men is to make the point that there are people in he world that don’t give a damn about you or anybody else. All they care about is money and power and they are perfectly willing to send others to their doom so long as they get what they want at no risk to themselves.
You said yourself, that “In the case of AO there was science to back it up that was being ignored.” Who stood to gain from that? Would this not be a case in point that so long as those that stood to gain got away with it, no one else mattered?
I never said that DU would disfigure someone exposed to it. It causes horribly disfiguring birth defects. There are plenty of images online if you want to google it and see for yourself.
As for Prince Albert glad to know he’s doing well. Do me a favor and tell the Queen I said Hi.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Jonn Lilyea
You took my use of the word ‘lucky’ out of context. Not everyone has come back in one piece physically, mentally & emotionally. Those who have are ‘lucky’ as in fortunate or blessed.
As far as Kissinger, what do you have to show that the quote is made up? And I did not need to go back that far to quote someone. I chose him because his words are just as relevant to today as they were at that time and because it was easy to back up that he actually said that.
I could give you plenty of other quotes how about this one from Hermann Goering? I can’t source it for you because to do that would require me to read german.
“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Or how bout this one from Heinrich Himmler. It makes a good case for the “war on terror”
“The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don’t ask for their love; only for their fear.”
March 10th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
Might I suggest you change your name to “JustPulledItOutOfMyAss”?
March 10th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Debra
Do you think it’s true that Iraq is planning to sue the US and Britain over use of depleted uranium?
We are talking about lawyers, right? You of all people Know this answer, facts be damned. Lead is a good example, but it is one well known and because of it, DU is well scrutinized…
JHS….if you don’t know better than to put those links up……buhbye…I’m not chasing your links to links to links for you….
March 10th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
As far as Kissinger, what do you have to show that the quote is made up?
You HAVE to be kidding, right…..?? JustHearSay said “all soldiers and veterans are dipshit assholes who are mind numbed robots and not worthy of ANY of societies blessings”
What do you have to show the quote is made up????? No one here can say you made it up so you must be a piece of shit…..cuz I said so…..how freaking lame….
March 10th, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Guys….. quit feeding the troll. Its obviously off it’s meds. No one here really cares what it has to say, anyway, so why respond to it?
March 10th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
Mike Blankenship
I take great pride in that name. All the other good names on twitter were taken so I had to really think hard to come up with one that was original and resonated with me. Don’t take it too seriously though. It was intended to be tongue in cheek.
You are right. I am honest and unpopular ideas are always scoffed at by many. At one time it was just hear say that the earth was round and not flat. You said “if i had a nickel for everyone i’ve seen like you the past forty years” so then surely you must be old enough to remember that at one time accusations of the Gulf of Ton-kin incident were just hear say. But how has that held up over time? Declassified documents support that it is not what Americans were told it was at the time.
Why do we forget these lessons of history? That maybe our government doesn’t tell us the truth before leading us into a fight? Do you think that things like this don’t happen anymore? Would never happen again?
What you think my agenda to be I don’t know but I can assure you it is not about ego. I know that there have been people in the past that have led us down the garden path. I know that people like this exist today and will continue to exist for all eternity. I am sure you know his as well. My question to you is why do you continue to follow where others may want to lead you on blind faith.
Our founding fathers left us with the warning not to believe everything we are told and to question authority. Scrutiny is our safeguard.
March 10th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Old Tanker
OMG I never said those things. I said that Kissinger said them to which you replied could not be backed up. It is a quote widely attributed to him. Wether someone made it up or not is debatable. Anyone who goes back and reads all the posts can easily see that. Why you decided to diverge from your more reasoned arguments I’ll never know.
March 11th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
JUSTHEARSAY………Gulf of Tonkin happened….get over it….next you’ll be claiming to be a 9-11 Truther….i’m done with your BS….
March 12th, 2010 at 8:15 am
@JustHearSay Says:
What is the big deal with being antiwar? Maybe the war really is wrong. Maybe we could protect our country and our borders in other ways without killing 1 million Iraqi civilians. Okay, I’m sure some of you could care less about those civilians even though some may be helpless children.
What planet are you from? Didn’t 9/11 hit close enough to your own back yard? Do you think muslim terrorists give a shit about “innocent civilians”. Go away and let the adults talk.