Army and Marines clash over MARPAT
The Army Times reports that the Army wants to change their duty uniforms again, so they’re looking at different patterns, three of them, including the Marines’ MARPAT design. So suddenly, the Marines, who by the way, borrowed the Army’s BDUs a few decades back are getting territorial about it with their Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent pissing everywhere to mark his “proprietary” design;
The Corps owns the rights to MARPAT and wants to retain it for its own use, Kent said late last year. Marine officials said they have no beef with anyone researching and testing MARPAT, but they want Marines distinguished from other service members on the battlefield.
“The main concern for the Marine Corps when it comes to other services testing our patterns is that they don’t exactly mimic them,” said Kent, who is scheduled to retire June 9. “The MARPAT design is proprietary, and it’s important those designs are reserved for Marines. We just need to make sure each of our designs is unique to each service.”
That’s just petty. The best thing about being out of the Army, is that I get to tell sergeant majors (it’s not “sergeants major” by the way – some uber-pseudo-intellectual dink at the Sergeant Major Academy made that shit up) what I really think of them. SGM Kent; the DoD is cutting your troops medical care while they’re on active duty and they’re going to screw you out of yours when you retire next month…don’t you think it’s important for you to pick your battles?
Arguing over fashion decisions doesn’t serve your Marines well. If you were really that concerned about the uniforms, you would have spoke up during the BDU era about Marines rolling up their sleeves backwards so they all had white arm bands on both arms.
To quote COB6 who sent us the link; ” So aside from a couple of sniper rifles and useless landing craft, you can turn in every piece of equipment in the Marine Corps that was designed, tested and fielded by the US Army! Thank you for your service douche-bag, now retire.”
Operator Dan adds: Funny, I never saw Sgt Major Kent speak out about Iraqi soldiers and police officers wearing MARPAT:
In fact according to the Marine Corps Times:
Marine officials don’t seem overly concerned about the situation. The MarPat design is patented by the Corps and has not been licensed for use by anyone except Marines, said Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokeswoman for Marine Corps Systems Command.
I would be more concerned about shady IPs wearing MARPAT than soldiers. But then again, this is the same Sgt Major who spent much of the last year spending a great deal of time fretting over a silly Facebook group started by former Marines called F’N Boot.
June 9th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Some Marines don’t have the common sense of a board fence. It’s just a damned shame their seargeant major is one of them.
Idiot.
June 9th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
So slap your EG&A on it, consider yourself “distingiushed,” and move out…
June 9th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
I’m sorry, but the Marines are being ridiculous here… That pattern doesn’t belong to the USMC. It belongs to the taxpayers. If it’s the best camo pattern/fabric out there, shouldn’t we let all our military use it? How much $$ could DoD save by having all the services use the same uniform? I think a pissing contest about this is stupid when there are much more important issues facing the military…
June 9th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
SgtMajor Kent it’s time to retire. We are all on the same side. The only place the Army patterns work is on the couch. Pick some battles that you can win.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
I think a deal might be reached to permit the army to use the Marines’ combat utility uniform, so long as the army makes a few changes. Namely, no more wearing your combat utilities to Wal-Mart.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Although I think the whining is juvenile, the Army needs to quit being a bubbleheaded fashion diva and pick a fricken pattern already! BDU, ACU, Multi-Cam……pick one!
June 9th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
If you look closely at the MARPAT uniform, you’ll see little EG&As in the pattern, specifically to prevent other organizations from using it. The same goes for their boots. I’m sure that Navy money was spent in RTD&E, and I’m sure that the joint side or DA will be more than willing to reimburse the cost to the Navy so that more money isn’t wasted on yet another cammo pattern when. We all went to BDUs specifically for the cost efficiencies of one cammo uniform in the system, and now we are back to 6 that I count (2 USMC, 1 Navy, 1 USAF, and 1 USA). If it saves the military a few hundred thousand on the equipping side, we might be able to move it to the pay and allowances that are going to take a hit. But, it is much more important for Marines to be “distinguished from other services on the battlefield.” I have no idea why.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
I’m on the Army’s side on this one. Remove the little tiny USMC emblems from within the pattern and there’s nothing terribly special about it.
As for the comments denigrating the Corps in general, well that’s a fight for another day.
Ohn by the way, its SgtMaj Kent, not SGM. He’s a Marine, remember?
June 9th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
Break out the wet-ones….
Why is it so hard for the US Army to come up with their own camo pattern?
Multi-cam is badass and would look great Tan/Brown so would the current ACU’s.
This is a Urinary Volume Contest between generals and has NOTHING to do with saving lives. MARPAT is not saving lives overseas b/c its superior.
If the Marine Corps and the DOD actually thought that this wouldn’t be a question.
Stop crying bitches, get your own shit!
June 9th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
I took from very reliable Canadian sources, when I was tasked to support elements of the RCR, that our Marines took the concept from Canadian Forces.
I see Navy Corpsmen wearing MARPAT, but otherwise wearing the Army’s execrable Universal Combat Pattern. I see sailors wearing digipat, and USAF wearing tiger striped digipat.
And now we’ve been told to expect cuts to retirement pay and benefits. How many dollars would be saved going to one, single, digital camoflauge pattern? Or is being American too hard these days?
This be a tempest in a tea cup.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Two words: black berets. Anyone remember the uproar over that decision?
June 9th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
I’ve always liked marpat, but how different is it from Cadpat? Personally, I think the army should go with multicam.
June 9th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
I know it seems petty but distinguishing Marines is important to the culture and how it works. The Marine Corps is not the Army, its two different organizations who operate in two different ways. If the Army hadn’t fucked up their new uniform acquisition in the first place this wouldn’t even be an issue.
This isn’t a money thing, its a PR thing. The MARPATs look awesome and the Army cammies look like dry cleaning bags. I know, I’ve worn both as an active Marine and a Guardsman. It’ll cost just as much to tear a couple million Multi-Cams from the factory as MARPAT. Swallow your pride, buy the Multi-Cams and move on already. You can’t have our shit.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
As NotSoOldMarine touches upon, it’s probably that sense Marines have of being special and a cut above the other services. I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way, but no one can deny that the Marines do have a special pride in their institution compared to other branches of the military. It’s reflected in their commercials, their dress uniform, just that ‘mystique’ and esprit de corps of the Marines in general.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
@ Tman -
That Esprit de Corps you speak of is foreign language to most. It’s also what leads to statements like this;
“”There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.”"
Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
We see what’s going on here and who’s whining about what.
In the end if the DOD forces the Corps hand on this, the Marines will create another NEW Pattern exclusive to its branch.
Yea we’re all on the same team, but were not all holding the same billet.
The only logical reason for the Marines to share their pattern is ‘IF’ it would save lives. Since we know that MARPAT is NOT saving lives there’s no need to press the issue.
I find the Army’s actions in this matter pathetically laughable.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Tell Operator Dan that that uniform the Iraqi is wearing aint Marpat, and the cut of the uniform is not the same as the Marpat uniform either. Not even close.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
And tell Miss Ladybug she is 100 percent incorrect. The pattern both desert and green verdant are PATENTED to the USMC. They belong to us.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
“The only logical reason for the Marines to share their pattern is ‘IF’ it would save lives. Since we know that MARPAT is NOT saving lives there’s no need to press the issue.”
Or if the bulk contract for more than one service is a cost savings.
June 9th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
The Marines pride themselves on not being the Army. Instituionally we are still chaffing at being forced by Pershing to wear Army uniforms in WWI. So sorry Army if we are not thrilled with you emulating us in this matter. As was pointed out above you guys fucked it up once and are now regretting your decission. You should have gone with multi cam but you were to cheap to pay for the supirior product and now you want to use a product that is flat out owned by the Marine Corps. I closing I would sugesst that the Army does a quick historical search and see just how many of these little turf wars the Marine Corps has lost in the last century. The odds are pretty good that we will win this one as well.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Steve, if you look at the blown up picture above the Iraqi flag on his sleeve, you can very clearly see “USMC” in little letters near the shoulder seam.
To be perfectly honest, I don’t want to wear your stuff. It’s not about saving lives, it’s about saving dollars. Get rid of all the service’s PMOs for combat uniforms and make a JPO for combat uniforms. Then move the RDT&E and procurement dollars from each service’s uniform PMOs partially to fund the uniform JPO and send the rest to pay and allowances. The second part of the answer is that every service stops wearing a “combat” or “utility” uniform in non-battle or utility settings. Then, no one will really care what cool pattern everyone is wearing in the office, and most of the discussion will end.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
The Army is pathetic, the Marine Corps came up with a new set of cammies, so the Army came up with a new set not wanting to be left out. And then they fumbled it up, like half the time with anything they try to come up with (besides some weapons). Come on really?! “3 shades of gray” to be universal for any type of field?! Guess they dont plan on deploying cause unless your attacking a color blind enemy, nature does have colors! Very little in nature is there gray! The Army has vastly more money than the Marine Corps and still they whine, they’re like rich kids who see the middle class kids with a toy they dont have, and complain!
And to fix this article’s INCORRECT history, the BDU’s were created and used for all and not by the Army. By the way the Army GAVE UP the BDU’s after the Vietnam War and reverted back to the solid olive drab while the Marine Corps continued its use AND THEN the other branches standardized them for their services in the ’80s.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
“Tell Operator Dan that that uniform the Iraqi is wearing aint Marpat, and the cut of the uniform is not the same as the Marpat uniform either. Not even close.”
The pattern is the same and yes the uniform has been modified but in country I saw plenty of Iraqis wearing MARPAT, some probably given to them by Marine units. Not to mention Navy SEALs, Navy EOD, Seabees, and DoD Contractors were given MARPAT uniforms by the Marines when they were attached.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
“The Marines pride themselves on not being the Army. Instituionally we are still chaffing at being forced by Pershing to wear Army uniforms in WWI.”
It’s not like they’re trying to steal your Dress Blues.
I’m amazed that in a combat zone people on the same team don’t, you know, look the same. I’m sure this whole thing wouldn’t be a big deal if the various services rediscovered they had distinctive uniforms that weren’t utilities/flight suits and that you can, in fact, where those uniforms to meetings and other non combat things far from war zones.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:42 pm
If Marines are so hung up on looking different maybe your pilots should quit wearing USAF/USN flight suits.
I can’t believe that people can’t grasp the idea that there isn’t this huge bucket of money sitting around where we can afford to continue to spend money to develop and field all sorts of different uniforms for the sole purpose of looking different than one another. If one utility uniform can functionally perform the job, and it will save the government and the tax-payer money then it needs to be done. Just as all the services save the Army use the same flight uniform (CWU-27P) the Army needs to dump the A2CU that costs 2-3 times as much and lasts half as long, which was developed so SGMs everywhere wouldn’t have to look at aviators wearing “pickle suits” or tan bags…a ridiculous waste of money. Millions could be saved over time as this is a constant re-occurring cost.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Funny, but this old Navy Chief always thought that what distinguished Marines from other service members on the battlefield was that they were better at it.
And off the battlefield, Marine Corps uniforms already rock out with their cock out. I don’t really see the point of different combat uniforms other than making it easier for the other side’s intelligence people to identify who we have doing what and where.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
P.S. And don’t get started on all the Navy uniform clusterfucks of the last forty years or so.
June 9th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
USMC Steve: So the Marines hold a patent for MARPAT. The US Marines are still a part of the US government, so the patent belongs to the goverment, and as a result belongs to the US taxpayers, collectively. This is silly. We don’t need a gazillion different combat uniforms, and this pissing contest about it (on both sides, but moreso, IMO, on the USMC’s part) is juvenile.
June 9th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Actually, Jonn, Sergeant Major Kent retired today, if your post is correct, so his opinion, as of today is just that, his opinion.
All in all, this is a whole lot of nothing. Miss Ladybug is right, the taxpayers pay for it, in these times they should get the most bang for their buck. As long as the uniform doesn’t end up being pink…..
June 9th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Miss Ladybug, I suspect you think it’s juvinile, simply because you are not a Marine. Some of the biggetst battles for survival the Marines have ever fought have been against the U.S. Army. We have spent entire decades huge amounts of political capital keeping ourselvs seperate from the Army. Don’t take this as too much of an insult but we do not want to be like the Army. The Army messed up thier current uniform (speeking of huge ammounts of wasted money). They have spent millions more evaluating different patterns. All they have to do to stop this argument is to pick a differnt patern. Multi cam was the winner of the Armys tests last time, but they choose the current pattern to try and do it on the cheap instead, of what was best for thier soldiers. So perhaps they should just go with the pattern that won last go round and call it good.
June 9th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
To those who think the Marines should give it up to save money, that’s simply retarded.
There is $BILLIONS$ of FAT we could trim off the budget,
WAY BEFORE we even get close to trimming the Military Budget.
Try again…
June 9th, 2011 at 4:26 pm
“they want Marines distinguished from other service members on the battlefield”
Okay, I was just an Army REMF and usually wore hospital whites on duty… but I thought the whole point of camouflage was so you could NOT be distinguished on the battlefield?
June 9th, 2011 at 4:26 pm
I first saw the verdant green MARPAT on Afghan MOD officers in 2003.
The pattern is effective. So is the design of the Marines’ boots. Kudos to the USMC for getting a good kit.
The Army has traditionally screwed its soldiers with the worst kit imaginable. Every good idea added 5 pounds, and every firefight sees one’s assigned weapon jamming regardless of environment.
BLUF: Universal patterns stand out in every environment except the contracting office. The Army, and all of the services, need a suite of suits to select from. I’m spitballing here, but guess there’s a winter version of the digipat, as well as an urban version with blacks and greys and browns and reds.
So good to the Corps for developing effective kit. Bad, bad Army! For choosing a uniform that failed every test at Natick as part of a long line of corrupt decisions.
Now, as Miss Ladybug and UpNorth so aptly point out: can we afford this argument? How many veterans are going to be enjoying increased medical costs because we vets and friends are bogged down in a urinary altercation.
June 9th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
That’s what I was trying to get at Sgt. D.
I’m not criticizing any service or views one way or another. I’m just stating a public perception that’s all.
June 9th, 2011 at 5:55 pm
Geez, I go to get a haircut, come back and you guys drank all of my liquor and left cigarette butts everywhere. I think you all missed my point; fuck Sergeant Majors.
June 9th, 2011 at 5:59 pm
I’ve been saying for years that the only thing the USMC really excels at is PR. If SgtMaj Kent really thought there was something special about Marines, he wouldn’t think they needed to wear a different uniform for people to know who they are. And if he really needs help telling the difference between soldiers and Marines I have a hint for him – the soldiers will be the ones doing every job their country calls on them to do, not just the ones that look good on a press release.
June 9th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
Yes ARMY, thanks for the “great” M-16A1 forced down everyones throat and all the “field testing” you did at the expense of Marines lives in VN…. surprisingly the Marines wanted to keep the M-14 which worked when it was dirty.
Lthrnck1775
June 9th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
yawn… Do you Marines really think your uniform is what makes you who you are? I thought it was your ability to take the fight to the enemy and being our expeditionary force of first choice? Is this no longer true…have I missed something. As an Army guy of some time on service, I’ve always been impressed with their ability to Make Shit Happen. I could always count on them to deliver. That being said, grow up.about your damn uniform. My personal experience makes me favor the muticam, the ACU is ridiculous. Whatever we choose, the USMC’s feelings are dead last in selection criteria. You don’t like or want to be associated with the Army? Then stop having us provide your log support. Oh wait..we’re supposed to work together, remember. Your joint expeditionary capabilities are underwritten by the other services, keeping your tooth to tail ratio low.
June 9th, 2011 at 6:10 pm
@Elric
Umm… if we didn’t have to keep making it “safe” for the Army we wouldn’t need the extended log train… 60 day combat by doctrine…. quit giving the territory back and we won’t need your log train.
Lthrnck1775
June 9th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
yawn… Do you Marines really think your uniform is what makes you who you are? I thought it was your ability to take the fight to the enemy and being our expeditionary force of first choice? Is this no longer true…have I missed something. As an Army guy of some time on service, I’ve always been impressed with their ability to Make Shit Happen. I could always count on them to deliver. That being said, grow up.about your damn uniform. My personal experience makes me favor the muticam, the ACU is ridiculous. Whatever we choose, the USMC’s feelings are dead last in selection criteria. You don’t like or want to be associated with the Army? Then stop having us provide your log support. Oh wait..we’re supposed to work together, remember. Your joint expeditionary capabilities are underwritten by the other services, keeping your tooth to tail ratio low. Be happy because that’s one hell of a deal if you can get it.
June 9th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
John@34 Roger that, including Kent, however, if anyone thinks that SgtMaj Kent decided to fire that shot across the Army’s bow all on his own they are sadly mistaken. That message was delivered signed and sealed from the United States Marine Corps via SgtMaj Kent, USMC (ret). It’s a signal that the Marine Corps is willing to fight over this issue. So the Army can pick another pattern or fight. AndyN, don’t read much history do you son?
June 9th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
Had lots of Marine MTTs show up at my doorstep needing supplies and never turned them away. Yeah it was a pain to jump our squadron 200 miles to establish a new Cop because the Marines couldn’t secure their own msr (Rt Bronze), 05. I know plenty of history, enough to know the difference between it and PR. I was a mission, and we had a productive relationship. Half the officers working for me in my last job were Marines, so I feel pretty good about my knowledge of the Corps. What I object to is the need of the Corps to denigrate other services to promote themselves.
June 9th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Elric, you said MSR Bronze, where you near Hit?
June 9th, 2011 at 6:40 pm
re #35
Congratulations on writing the dumbest thing so far in an already ridiculous thread.
June 9th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Dan, Rawah out to Ar Rabit on the Syrian border.
June 9th, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Dan….also had a mission to support a task force going after HVTs in Al Anbar and southern Ninevah. Their vehicles were having some ied surbivability problems. We had Strykers and were available.
June 9th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Jonn, I agree with you, especially since the Army allows SGMs who have never deployed to sit on its uniform board and make decisions about camouflage uniforms that they will never wear into combat, whereas Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children have an entire warfighter lab made up of combat vets of all ranks and equipment ideas are encouraged by rank and file, unlike us Soldiers who get shouted down if we have a gear suggestion. The Army has always had that issue with taking ideas and suggestions from the ranks…
June 9th, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Okay thats it…
Everyone should wear a Khaki Commando Kilt.
http://www.sportkilt.com/product/3211/Khaki.html
June 9th, 2011 at 7:31 pm
It.is.just.a.bunch.of.fabric. Who cares. You can take just about any Marine, dress them up and throw them into a crowd and you know what, I could probably pick them out every fricken time. It is not what a Marine wears, it’s what inside that makes them a Marine – they just stand out (in a good way). Even though I am an Air Force vet, the service I have the most respect for are the Marines. Don’t make me change my mind with all this pointless bickering.
June 9th, 2011 at 7:58 pm
Geez, if it’s the best uniform then let all the services use it. Although, let’s go back to the other branches having the name/service tapes and Marines return to just the EGA with USMC underneath on the blouse pocket.
Elric, that went both ways with Marines also assisting National Guard and some Army units in MNF-W. Of course at that time MNF-W was bigger than just Al-Anbar Province. I too spent time there from May 2005 until Feb 2006 in Fallujah.
If COB6 is calling Amtracks a useles landing craft, I would like to klnow another armored assault vehicle that can launch from a ship and go through a 10 foot surf zone.
June 9th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
#30 Sgt. D:
Yes, I know there is a lot of fat that can be trimmed from the budget. I might start with eliminating the both DoEs. But we all know that’s not going to happen. Like it or not, DoD is going to have to trim $ from the budget. I’d rather take it out of uniform R&D than other area (pay & benefits, gear that will help keep our troops from getting killed or wound, etc.).
June 9th, 2011 at 9:18 pm
YY…i hear you. Had to put 7 guys on a Marine MEDEVAC out of AL QUAIM one long day. Came back later and worked w some Cobras taking out a mortar team at the bridge. Good times!
June 9th, 2011 at 10:07 pm
IIRC, the original plan was a joint venture between the Corps and Big Army, to save money. The Corps got tired of waiting and went their own way and viola! MARPAT. Big Army couldn’t get off the dime and screwed the pooch. So, I’m with the Marines on this one, wrt a who’s in the right issue.
On the other hand, we are broke. Figure it out and make it happen.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
#47 JustPlainJason,
Now that’s cool! I see it only comes in Navy khaki. For easier access in the Goat Locker I imagine.
June 9th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
Sorry Marines I get you want to be special and everything but One team one fight.
June 10th, 2011 at 12:20 am
personally I was disgusted when we switched from split pocket jungles to woodlands back in the 80s. crappy material, crappy colors, crappy pattern and huge ass Elvis collars. Ripstops didn’t, but they were a small improvement
June 10th, 2011 at 12:30 am
Ah yes…..Lilyea? Don’t cha just love it when these inter-service branch rivalries erupt? Navy does this…Marines do that…Air Force does this…Army does that..but I’ll tell all ya’ll what really perplexes me? What the sam hell ever happened to plain old fashioned OD green? By the way, Marine & Army MP’s? We’re one in the same, nobody likes us! No rivalry there!
*cackle*
June 10th, 2011 at 2:24 am
Want to savemoney, lets start with Marines! An organisation that has no natural fit in our national security pantheon and frankly that constant reference to that last altercation back during the Trueman administartionetween the Army possibly trying to elimate the USMC, kinda of a stretch, don’t you think. That is more then fifty years ago, The Marines have found ways to fuck with the Army more then that in the last 30! Shove it up your ass. How many times does the Army have to take what for the team but the Marines’ can’t even be asked to give up a simple uniform pattern is unreal. Someone already mentioned the BDU issue above.
The Army should rake the USMC over the coals over this. Typical Jarhead chickenshit. That patent belongs to the government which the Marine Corps belongs. When the Army ceases having to opcon brigades to support Marine generals in their own AOs then they can hold their superiority up.
As regards to equipment have the Marines’ turn in all their rifles, Abrams, and miscellanous goodies they have stolen over the years. When the Marines’ are forced to replace that death trap, the Opsprey, I hope the USA/USN have a patent on every other goddamn rotary aircraft possibly in inventory. You know for uniqueness sake. I won’t even mention some of the other Marine Corp wonder acquisitions over the years, like the Ontos.
Maybe thats the lesson though, the Army infantry should secede from the Army. Raise the banner of Saint Maurice(patron of the infantry), and become its own institution, that unlike the Marinesdon’t have to lie about actually being founded in 1775!
Sorry for any typos/spacing issues, edit issues in this format.
June 10th, 2011 at 2:47 am
P.S. One last point, I distinctly remember general James Jones, when he was commandant of the Marine Corps in the 00′, being asked point blank(I think on the Beltway boys on Fox) if any of the other services had shown any interest in the USMC’ uniform, of which he was wearing at the moment. he had some oblique reply like he hadn’t been approached or something along those lines. He, the Commandant of the entire Marine Corp, knew it was likely all the way back then.
June 10th, 2011 at 2:57 am
P.P.S. To what ever dumb ass Marine aboved mentioned the BDUs in Vietnam, there no were BDUs then, I think your thinking of the Tiger Stripes, thats completely different.
June 10th, 2011 at 9:17 am
Can’t we all just get along????
June 10th, 2011 at 10:36 am
“Want to savemoney, lets start with Marines! An organisation that has no natural fit in our national security pantheon…”
That is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard in my life. End yourself.
June 10th, 2011 at 11:56 am
re #52,
That was my recollection too but I couldn’t find a link to back it up. Back in the 90′s the Marines wanted to go in on a new uniform with the Army but the Army passed and so the Marines coughed up all the development money themselves. Few years later we have MARPATs. I think part of the reason they’re so possessive is that they got forced to pay for the whole thing.
June 10th, 2011 at 12:12 pm
Didn’t the MARPAT/digicam style come from folks wanting to find better camoflauge while hunting deer?
June 10th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
LOL there is a Sergeant Major Academy? WTF do they teach there? “This is how you tell someone where to put the chow.” and “This is how you tell someone where to put the latrines.” sounds difficult.
June 10th, 2011 at 1:48 pm
As a logistics guy, this entire discussion is idiotic. Utility uniforms, BDUs, ACUs, whatever the services want to call them should be standardized and reserved for use during combat and field operations only. Service uniforms are already in place and unique to each service…have been for a LONG time. Why not make those uniforms more functional for daily garrison wear (comfortable fabric, stain resistance, etc)?
In combat, we should outfit our troops in the most effective pattern for the environment they serve…who gives a sh*t who developed it. This is a good place to ask a Navy guy why/where blue camo makes sense? If I fall off a ship, I am much mor interested in sticking out than blending in. All this uniqueness is costing the services MILLIONS and its a pain in the ass to support when deployed.
Marines distinguish themselves by thier actions, pride, and professionalism…little EGAs on thier camo won’t change that.
June 10th, 2011 at 2:25 pm
#64 Achilles,
Golf, and how to chew out a First Sergeant. That latter course is difficult because Diamonds are trump.
Agree with LtCol B USMC. Self-inflicted wounds suck.
June 10th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Funny, that comment about logistics. I can remember our Marine units providing the doggies with food water and everything else for over two months during the runup to the first gulf war when they didn’t bring that shit with them, and their logistical tail wouldn’t wag. Screw you and your logistics, doggie. The only things we get from the Army are what we steal from you when you leave it laying around.
June 10th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
I looked at that uniform the Iraqi has on, and while it may be made from Marpat material, it is not a Marine uniform. Marpat’s don’t have that “Nehru” type collar on them.
June 10th, 2011 at 3:42 pm
#61 “End yourself.” Yeah good come back. Try again douche.
June 10th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Ladybug, except for when they are in the field, the individual Marine has to BUY his cammies. They are not given to him, so the government isn’t buying him shit. All uniform items are purchased. That is why one gets a uniform allowance. Nor does it cost the government anything since we buy them at the government’s cost. During thebuild up to the first Gulf War, if we wanted new cammies, we had to buy them as well. even though we were on field duty. The war itself didn’t last long enough to wear a set of utilities out.
June 10th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
A host of wrong answers from Cedo Alteram. Another Marine hater who is jealous of our ability to get it done. No biggie, there are lots of them.
Point one, if Truman and his fellow former doggies had been able to rid the world of the Corps, the ARMY would have gotten their untrained undisciplined asses thrown totally out of Korea. It took the First Marine Brigade to hold and push out of the Pusan Perimeter as admitted by the senior Army General present there. And the Eighth Army’s sterling performance at the Chosin Reservoir WHERE THEY RAN FROM THE ENEMY and left the 1st Marine Division to cover for them and make their own way back out of that trap, really demonstrates how unnecessary the Corps was and continues to be, and how great and effective the Army is.
Point two. The first Cammies as Marines call them, were being issued by June of 1968. When I went through recruit training in 1978, I got two sets of Sateens, and two sets of green ERDL Cammies. And as a point of fact, the Corps has never gotten more than 7 cents of each defense dollar, making us have to be a hell of a lot more efficient than any other service. No 2 Billion dollar a copy bombers for our use.
June 11th, 2011 at 12:47 am
#70 – I didn’t say Marine got all their uniforms for free. I said the development of MARPAT was paid for by the taxpayer, so any patent the Marines hold for it is the property of American taxpayers. As such, if MARPAT is the best camo pattern out there, it should be made available to all the other services, too.
June 11th, 2011 at 12:56 am
#71 Right on target USMC Steve! Cedo is definitely way off base on the Corps! If it wasn’t for the Marines in Korea using helicopters to move men and supplies during combat ops during the later stages of the war, the Army would still be trying to figure out what the hell to do with them besides medevac. The Marines were the ones that took the POS M16 and made it an “adequate” combat rifle with the intro of the M16A2. It was the Marines that made it to Baghdad first during OIF, using vehicles that were designed for amphib assaults, paired up with the M1A1. The Marines have had to fight for their existence since the beginning. And damn right the taxpayers get more BANG for their buck the Marines! SEMPER FI!
June 11th, 2011 at 4:09 am
#71 No Steve wrong again. No one turns mountains into mole hills like Marines, especially in their inability to understand that the Army has no service identity like that! Its simply to vast an entity and few armies do. Soldiers identify with their unit and to a lesser extent branch, not the whole Army. I guess when your two damn divisions, who can sit on the board with the other chiefs, you will have pull out of all disproportion to your numbers! Maybe after the second World War the old 18th Airborne Corps should have done the same and became a seperate branch.
Korea.
A)One the Trueman administration gutted all of our ground forces, naively believing that conventional conflicts were obsolete with the advent of nuclear weapons. It wasn’t just the Marines. The only reserve formation we had that I can recall was the 82nd and if deployed would leave us with no strategic reserve for europe.
Did you see the Marines fed into the war piece meal Steve? Me either? With almost no proper antitank weapons of any sort. What about that airwing? Oh wait the Army didn’t have one. Show me any Army formation, any reenforced Regimental combat team, that had anything like the Marine Brigade’s firepower.
B) Its amazing the Marine’s selective memory of the Chosin reservoir. Never mentioned are the the three regular Army regiments, one of which would evetually be practically destroyed holding up nearly an entire chinese division. This also doesn’t change my earlier point about the Marines’ having a single division in the war(s) and the Army several. That would be a better comparison when it comes to effectiveness.
C) Running from the enemy, like the Marines at Bull Run.
Not a hater Steve just a correcter. No one pulls more inservice nonsense then the Marines do. They are also the first to shout “inservice rivalry” when someone shines the light right back at them.
June 11th, 2011 at 4:13 am
Steve one last point, ERDL isn’t that the pattern the Army developed back in the late 40s, kinda of ironic don’t you think with this MARPAT conversaion.
June 11th, 2011 at 4:14 am
#73 To many tangents to go off into. Suffice to say, the 3rd ID was the first into Baghdad.
June 11th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
Hey USMCSteve. Every US military unit that were deployed to Korea fought under pretty damn harsh conditions. The worst of it began when a Chinese Communist Force (CCF)division joined the battle with the NK’s at Chosin. One part of the Korea War history you clearly don’t seem to know little and or anything about, it was US division commanders that ordered withdrawls to the 38th Parallel when 4 more divisions(you got that, 4 CCF divisions?) of CCF engaged the battle.
I was going to stay out this here little argument, but? It is time for you read about what was going on during the Korea War HERE!
Courtesy 1st Cavalry Division Association.
June 11th, 2011 at 6:02 pm
I can say that I am a soldier and am positively sick and tired of all the uniform musical chairs our service has been involved in over the time that I have been in. They sent us surveys when they wanted to know about the new service uniform that they wanted to use to replace the class A uniform but had it phrased so that you couldn’t disagree with it but rather made it sound like you were offering suggestions on variations of a choice they had already made. One thing that I will give the marines is that their dress uniforms remain fairly consistent. The army has a bunch of marketing gurus trying to appeal to focus groups. Tradition means something when a kid is looking to make a choice of service. That is a big reason for the marines’ recruiting success. The army should have gone to pinks and greens to replace the class A uniform (which looked like a weird business suit). They should have left the dress blues alone instead of making them an “any occasion” uniform. We also need to get rid of that black beret too. Okay, I’ll take a breath now. Sorry for the rant, but I just needed to get that out. As far as combat uniforms, I have worn the DCU and ACU in Iraq and the Stan respectively and in my opinion, I would rather go with the Multicam than the MARPAT. I just hate digital camo. And as an aside, I seem to remember being in Baghdad already when the marines rolled in.
June 12th, 2011 at 12:46 am
#76 I said first to make it TO Baghdad. Not first into Baghdad. Read the post. I am tired of always having to defend against people that have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to the Marines. Yes we are on the same side, and we should get along better than we do. But the fact of the matter is, dollar for dollar, man for man, the taxpayers get a better return on the money spent on the USMC, than any other service.
June 12th, 2011 at 9:46 am
If the USMC were the same size and scope as the US Army there still would be a lot of the same issues, get over yourselves.
Marines do a great job and they should be proud of their service to the nation. When you talk about Army vs. Marines you are compairing apples and oranges. A more apt comparison would be Rangers and Marines.
Now back to the dick measuring.
June 15th, 2011 at 5:17 am
#79 Then this is a brand new explanation, because every Marine I have ever encountered has always implied “to” meant “in”. I’m sceptical how do you measure to? First to the closest waterway? Suburb? Facility? What about distance, 10, 20, 50 miles? Depending on the criteria you use your likely to get a different answer. It is plausible, convince me. Explain.
As for a chip, I haven’t one. Marines don’t like being told that they by far have the thinnest skin of the services. The Army sees the Marines at most as an annoyance. The USMC sees the USA as an mortal threat, and this leads to some really outrageous over compensation. They have a habit of spouting half truths and factual inaccuracies about the Army. Whether out of sincere belief or because it coincides with their interests, its a habit. Thats it.
80# “A more apt comparison would be Rangers and Marines”, based on what. A good comparison for combat effectiveness would be unit to unit, less service to service.
June 16th, 2011 at 4:05 am
First of all I would like to say being a prior Marine, now active Army, (thank god the enlistment is almost over), that the Army had it’s chance back in 2005 to procure the exact same uniform the corps Now wears. Check the Marine corps times titled “How the Army took your uniform and made it better”. The Army wasted a ton of money testing a uniform that was ready to go, flipped the Collar up and put Velcro on it. The point here is that the Marines don’t get allocated a lot of money so they have a get it right the first time attitude that you all call arrogant and “chip on the shoulder”.
Maybe the Army should start with a standard head gear. Let’s get that right first. This is embarrassing and is only the tip of the ice berg with what’s wrong with the Army. So I ask, six years and eight proposed uniforms later why are we on the Marines doorstep again? If the Army wants to copy something then it should definitely start with the leadership department. A uniform won’t change that.
Read more -traebiz@tripod.com
June 16th, 2011 at 7:45 am
@ #81 I was referring to a size comparison, if you’d like to you could use a BCT vs. a Marine Brigade. The point was comparing a leviathan like the Army to a much smaller USMC is not an apples to apples comparison.
But as you stated it’s not about being fair or logical, it’s emotional…so whatever.
June 17th, 2011 at 2:00 am
The real Story of the battle of Chosin:
The war between the Army and Marines would get more vicious in Korea. On November 27th, 1950 a division of Marines 25,000 strong, was ordered to proceed along the west side of the Chosin reservoir, while a much smaller task force of 2500 Army troops went up the eastern side. Waiting for them were 120,000 troops of the Chinese Communist 9th Army Group.
The Army soldiers fought a running battle for three days against a Chinese force eight times their size, in temperatures as low as minus 35 degrees. Despite the death of two commanding officers, the task force lumbered south with over 600 dead and wounded soldiers loaded into trucks, fought through repeated ambushes, and was even mistakenly bombed by US Marine aircraft. Finally, just four miles from safety, the convoy was cut off by the Chinese and annihilated.
385 men made it to the safety of American lines by crossing the frozen Chosin Reservoir.
The First Marine Division, with the help of allied air power, managed to fight their way out of the Chinese encirclement. Marines claimed that the Army had disgraced itself, and passed on stories of US soldiers throwing down their weapons and feigning injuries. A Marine Chaplain even made statements to the press and wrote an article accusing army soldiers of cowardice.
There were so few officers and men left from the Army task force that the Marine’s claims were accepted as fact. But newly released Chinese documents prove otherwise. The Army task force fought bravely against overwhelming odds before being destroyed, and their stubborn defense bought time for the Marines to escape the encirclement.
Nevertheless, Marines to this day hold up the fight at the Chosin reservoir as proof of their superiority over the Army.
June 17th, 2011 at 2:46 am
#82 A dispute about Marpat is hardly being at their doorstep. Nevermind again.
Agree about the Beret, blame Shinseki. Thats a problem thats easily fixable.
The origional comment was that I was the one with the chip.
83# Agree
#84 SHHH!!!! Don’t tell the Marines that.
June 17th, 2011 at 4:38 am
#82 I am speaking as a person that has served in both branches my opinions are not biased but truth. Look at the uniform and boots issued to deployed war fighters. Have you deployed? Thats another new uniform. It costs money. Do you wear a beret while deployed? You can blame who you want, but it shows a lack of discipline to change uniforms and accessories for recruiting purpose or whatever. If you can’t come up with a standard uniform for YOUR Soldiers, borrowing one won’t solve this problem. I just wish some one had the common sense to just go back to DCU or BDU. It worked in desert storm just make it in digital…………..
#84 there is nothing truthful you can say or prove about Marine history. You weren’t there. All I know is that what the devil dogs and Soldiers did there was epic, and I will leave it at that.
June 19th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
#86
1)I mentioned the beret because you brought up the head gear.
2)I’ve always said that the least of the ACUs problems is it’s universal camoflage pattern. Its just a poor design, but again that is another long topic. I know I have commented on the beret, ACU, and blues in other threads(I think I have anyway) so I’ll stop there.
I really am not sure whether Multicam or Marpat is the better pattern. I don’t even think there is a desert Multicam or if there is I haven’t seen it. I am open to the idea it may very well be Marpat though and yes the Marines’ should hand it over if so. I doubt the Army would adopt the Marine’s uniform cut, even if they got Marpat. Neither service has ever adopted the other’s cover have they?
If for the sake of argument, the Army should go with Multicam and after a few years service it is discovered to be superior, should the Army be able to deny the USMC access to it? The answer is of course not. So why is that same point not valid here? Its not Marine Camoflage, its just plain camoflage!
#86 Last two sentences. Again tell that to the Marine’s who have selective memories. Its not simply “Marine” history is American history.
June 20th, 2011 at 12:06 am
#87 This is what I saw after my deployment last year as a I MEF POG:
Army has ACU’s. 8 months or so later, I see their POGs get Multicam, and bitch about the constant change in uniform. Everything from Dress uniforms to the Salad Suits to cammies. They fucking hated it and were tired of having to be issued and re-issued gear (because, of course, ALL of their 782 gear [or flaks, kevlar covers, pouches, etc.] was issued in ACU). All of the gear has to be DRMO’d, because the patterns don’t match, and they’ll be out of regs.
And yes, on at least 4 or 5 different occasions, big-wig Army has attempted to either antiquate the Marine Corp, or absorb it. If you don’t believe me on this, read Lt. Gen. (Ret) V. H. Krulak’s First To Fight autobiography/historical reference. He was there, fighting the Army, and President Truman ( If I remember correctly) on the reduction/destruction of the Corps. It was actually Congress that has saved us every time. Read your history.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/reviews/2009-02-09-last-stand-of-fox-company_N.htm
http://www.amazon.com/First-Fight-Inside-Marine-Bluejacket/dp/1557504644
June 20th, 2011 at 10:04 pm
#88 I actually did read Krulak’s book a few years ago(thats the father, not the commandant right?), have it in a box somewhere. Could have sworn he just died a few years ago, didn’t he?
SharpSpoonful, read the comments above and you’ll see I(and others) have already commented on the distorted view the USMC has of the Army and why that is so(and often wrong). This entire thread had its origions in the camo, and quickly became Marines’ crapping on the USA because they had a weak argument for exclusivity of the pattern.
June 20th, 2011 at 10:07 pm
As an example read my comments about Korea.
September 23rd, 2011 at 3:45 am
The point i guess is to just get eveyone back to the same uniform to save alot i for one think it WILL have to happen eventualy,For example the BDUs from photos ive seen or infact not have seen “To be more to the point” from Operation Urgent Fury back in 83,you see divisions of both the Armys 82nd Airborne and its infantry divisions ‘Except for the Rangers’ as well as some from the USMC using them in droves and All of them seemed prety happy wearing the same thing and nobody complained up until 2001 when MARPAT was adopted,Plus if the Army has attempted 4 or 5 times to absorb of abolish the Corps and FAILED each time they did then i Don’t think they’ll go for a 6th or 7th time Different Hats or Covers and sleeves prety much take care of the looking different issue for the most part,You all fight under the same colored flag No need for different looking uniforms it just waste cash Simple fact.Oh and BDU celebrated its 30th birthday would have been nice to see all the branche’s including the Marine Corps dawn the BDU for that little unkown occasion.
November 17th, 2011 at 11:23 pm
OCCUPY USMC…………. !!!! The Army of the poor vs. the army of the rich
December 26th, 2011 at 10:16 am
This is also the same SgtMaj who threw a hissy fit over an Air Force recruiting commercial so loudly that the AF yanked it. It was an AF DI (or whatever they are called) bragging how their recruits are in better shape than some Marines.
March 24th, 2012 at 12:02 am
I think personally most men in the Armed Forces are dicks and even with serving an entirety of 15 years I have resolved myself to the fact most of the reason we go to war is because of men who cause the wars I refuse to serve my country anymore because of the petty arguments and male attitudes such as displayed here in these posts. I encourage all of my fellow females to do the same and let the idiots fight their own fights like they want alongside their gay counterparts who are men also and let us women find something else better to do…I know most women don’t like the idea of a women’s corps but trust me…after serving with ignorant dicks…you might change your. Ind if it is where it should be and oh, just one more thing, yes, I fought in the war and was not what you would call a fobitt. I went outside the wire and not once complained and did what I was told without question…and one more thing… Thanks to all you spreading your legs…you make those of us who are legit be taken as a joke!
March 24th, 2012 at 12:06 am
Oh as far as the uniform is concerned…who the hell cares as long as you are clothed while in combat! really! I’ve wasted enough time even reading this crap…ugh! If purple barney uniforms help win the war I would wear that!
March 24th, 2012 at 12:21 am
1. This thread is almost a year old.
2. Have you been drinking?
March 24th, 2012 at 1:04 am
Why yes I have thank you, my question is…have you? You are reading this are you?
March 24th, 2012 at 1:28 am
Huh.
March 24th, 2012 at 7:20 am
Nevermind…..
March 24th, 2012 at 8:26 am
Obvious troll is obvious.
March 25th, 2012 at 11:22 pm
I apologize to all fellow bloggers on this site…my wife has been having this urge to prove herself ever since she read something from a feminists site…she has lost her military bearing ever since she was discharged from the military, however I would just like to apologize . I myself, am going into the Marine Corps from the Army and have questions on what awards I am allowed to wear from other services..I have been searching google and the only definite answer that Ive come across is that state awards are not allowed…but what of my Arcom, AAM, GWOT etc….
April 9th, 2012 at 2:25 am
I’m not trying to revive this but this article does not give complete information. The Iraqi soldier you see is actually a interpreter attached to a USMC unit. The same picture and article to go with it was featured on military.com
April 9th, 2012 at 2:28 am
@Spc D most awards transfer happened to my brother in law when he went navy to Marines
April 9th, 2012 at 8:58 am
Cedo talks about tangents? I have not seen such a prolific name caller on any forum not run by 13 year olds.
At Manassas the Marines did run; so too did the army, what is your point? In Korea the Marines did have the advantage of dedicated air support, they still do, is that something we should regret?
The Marines ran rings around the army in Korea. Army generals almost universally recognized this. Colonel Hackworth wrote about it. General Walker, MacArthur and others all freely admitted it. Their superiority was not just about their air wing either. Marines were better trained and better led.
The army did poorly at the Chosin and that is freely admitted in contemporary accounts by US Army officers as well as UK officers.
The army today is filled with fat soldiers. Many have a ghetto attitude that pisses off professional soldiers to no end. ASVAB waivers became the norm in the last ten years. No hate, no name calling, just facts but how any of this has to do with MARPAT is beyond me and yet here we are.
The point, my counter point really, is that the Marines are better than the army but so what? With 200,000 men it should be. That does not mean there are not soldiers every bit as good as the best Marines and I have in fact served with quite a few great soldiers who could hold their own with any Marine. But most of them, including those who were not special ops or rangers, hated what they called “big army” with more passion than any marine ever could.
But none of that has anything to do with MARPAT. I think the real issue (as to MARPAT) is why is it so hard for the army to design and stick with a uniform? Black berets, MARPAT??? Kent’s remarks, though dumb, are not near the level of stupid we see in the army’s consistent inability to get something so simple right. Kent did not pick the army’s uniform so do not blame that poor brain dead shit for any of this. In fact, this has been going on for a long time.
The Marines have had a dress uniform that is little changed since the late 1850s. The ranks have pointed up since then (the army not until the early 1900s) and the emblem has been largely the same since 1868.
By contrast the army had the great pink and greens of the 1940s only to eventually shit can them for some over badged puke green crap. Now it is blues. I do not think we have changed any uniform (save cammies and elimanting khaki, officer whites and the great coat) since 1957. To copy is fine but do so, make it army unique in some way and stick to it! Dont change the thing in ten years.
Finally, I believe Marines were the first US troops to wear cammo patterns but I may be wrong.
As to Kent, he is what most Marine Sergeant Majors are; idiots, useless tools with massive egos and very little time (if any) in an infantry battalion.
@84. You seem ignorant of the fact taht it was Marine air that even allowed what was left of RCT 31 to escape and that the airstrike you mention was not errant but the result of nochoice as the RCT was about to be overwhelmed. Of the 2,500 soldiers of the RCT, slightly over 1,000 (not 385) made it back to US lines.
As to Marines spreading tales about the army, that is only part of the story. I believe that the ADC for the 7th Inf Div said to the weaponless soldiers of RCT 31 “cant any of you do anything?”
I know that Major General Frank Lowe (US ARMY) thought Marines were the finest fighting men in the world. Point is whatever telling of tales there were, many of those tales were told by soldiers of the time.
You want to talk about Korea and what happened to RCT 31. Start and end with Almond. I think he was a soldier.
April 19th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
[...] vs. USMC MARPAT battle ends April 19th, 2012 Last year we had a rather furious battle here when the Army made overtures to the USMC about borrowing their MARPAT (Marine pattern) uniform [...]
April 29th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I think they borrowed it for testing the IR signature along with the navy AOR patts, they are going to choose a new “Family of Patterns” so i’ve herd.
May 26th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
I’ve read about the chosin reservoir, and sad to say, the Army did suck back then. It was the marines who really saved the day for the UN.
May 26th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
SGT Female, you are an imbecile. Shut it before you embarrass yourself even more. I am more than a little skeptical of your claims, and if a walking advertisement for abortion such as yourself ever did actually serve then methinks a nice cushy nondeployable billet was involved. So do us all a favor and return to whatever rat hole you mistakenly crawled out of.
What does the Korean War have to do with who gets to wear MARPAT? As a Marine I’m sympathetic to the Marine POV here to a point. Personally, I don’t want to see anyone who isn’t a Marine wearing MARPAT (the exception being Navy greensiders and SF personnel), but if it will save lives I think it should be allowed. The stipulation being that the Army raises their standards for acceptable wear, or that these uniforms are only worn by Army personnel with a combat arms MOS (I don’t think the uniform you wear would have any bearing on the safety of convoys, or even urban operations in general.)
I respect the Army and anyone who chooses to serve, but I have seem some cringeworthy uniform standards. Particularly by the Guard and support services, and I would prefer to not see Marine uniforms worn in such a manner.
May 27th, 2012 at 1:12 am
Ann, Sister, let this go. A retard of this proportion isn’t worth your time or effort. We both wear the Eagle, Globe & Anchor. We both know what that means. She is so delusional as to not know reality from delusion. Semper Fi Sis!
May 27th, 2012 at 2:00 am
But poking trolls in the eye with a stick is so much fun!
May 27th, 2012 at 2:21 am
@110, Ann you gotta come to Phoenix so we can have a beer or 10!? Or since I’m on a leave of absence, I’ll go where you are!? You, dear heart, are a Jarhead which makes me proud!
June 22nd, 2012 at 12:34 am
OK, as a former Marine, I can say I agree with my chain of command. What the SgtMaj is trying to say, is if all the other idiots in the rest of the military use OUR uniform, then when all you guys act like idiots and wear your uniform in public, people will think it is US, and I mean the Marine Corps. Or when you retreat and run from a gun fight, people will think they have done the impossible, defeat the Marines!! not gonna happen. You wanna look like us, and be mistaken as us, but want the easy way out and not earn it. Sorry for your choice, should have chosen the best and not for who pays more for collage.
October 26th, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Being a Marine who has completed two combat tours in Iraq, I can ONLY agree with the SgtMaj! The enemy is afraid of Marines…not Army doggies!! We have earned our reputation and you have earned yours. But, who could blame you for desiring to be mistaken for the world’s greatest fighting force…if only by appearance. The USMC however has NO desire to be mistaken for the mediocre “product” that the Army displays in combat. We have earned the fear and respect of our enemies, and I for one would like to see the distinguishable features of the Marine Corps uniforms remain ours and ours alone. Hey Army…EARN YOUR OWN!!
October 26th, 2012 at 12:52 pm
@94.
You served 15 years and only made SGT (E-5)?
That explains alot.
October 26th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
113, you need to switch to decaf. There is a difference between good natured ribbing between services and coming off as an arrogant prick. I find your “my branch is better than your branch” crap childish. If all Marines had the maturity level that you just showed I am glad that I joined a different branch of service. Thankfully they don’t.
October 26th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
I suppose the Army could tell the USMC that it couldn’t use any Army-developed equipment because the Army had developed it. Like SINCGARs, the M249, the M16A2 (though some might call that a blessing), the M1911A1, most tactical vehicles, the AH-1G and UH-60, and most other battlefield systems (the Army developed the vast majority of the battlefield systems currently in use). IMO that would make as much sense as what the USMC is saying here. And IMO, it would be also be a perfectly stupid thing to do.
Then again, I always was a fan of doing what we could to reduce friendly casualties in combat so long as that was consistent with accomplishing the mission. Apparently some aren’t.
October 26th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
@113.
As a former AD Army, Ranger qualified Infantryman (11V), I have always respected the USMC Infantry. Actaully, it is one of the few componets with whom we saw “eye to eye”.
October 26th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Actually
October 26th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
I would also like to add…
http://www.newser.com/story/9234/us-marines-want-out-of-iraq.html
You know, at a time when Iraq just happened to be more dangerous than Afghanistan. Get over yourself, your branch is no better than any of the others, same as mine is no better than any other.
December 8th, 2012 at 11:38 pm
LOL! I read all of the above and almost lost my mind laughing. I only include my insight because it is perhaps what can dissuade the smarter of the temporary imbeciles. Before I fire my viewpoint on the issue, 5 pre-combat checks:
1. I went to The Citadel Military College and got to operate closely with Air Force, Navy, Army and Marine Corps personnel.
2. As a heavy machine gun infantry squad leader and 2 Iraq deployments + 1 Afghanistan, I earned rank and file credentials to ooze some knowledge which is controversial and radical, yet is the truth
3. Don’t hate me personally. Analyze the premise of my statements. I love freedom, the American way of life and I sincerely want the whole human race to be free to choose their own path to awesomeness. We need to stop wasting our time bumping heads. Performance is everything, and I believe the heart of this uniform controversy is mostly based on reputation protection vs identity issue / cosmetic inspirational loss.
Consider this:so billions were wasted by the US Army with this digital pattern confusion. Throughout time there were similar deals with Rangers’ berets being highjack for widespread use (they ended up with a Tan one), etc, etc. The USMC is naturally protective of its combat reputation, and the regular army annoyed the Rangers as well in their hypocritical commandeering of the beret to raise their morale.
The sadness of all this is the waste of money. That will be America’s doom, like it happened with all great civilization that was on top and started to mess up and run out of money (e.g. Romans, lol). The Army is huge, the Marine Corps is small. The budget of the Army is awesome, the USMC = abysmal. Somehow, this misery ensures the USMC does not fuck up as often, because simply, they literally can’t afford it. They are a bunch of paranoid SOBs and their survival from getting eating like a lesser amoeba relies on combat effectiveness relevance. There are surely a bunch of assholes in there, but they are mostly very effective warriors. Such reputation plays a game in the enemy’s mind. I wish all of America’s combat forces were badass. The Rangers, Army SOF, Delta, The Navy Seals and US Air Force SOF are all stellar performers. They want to set themselves apart from the big group of fat bodies and non-hackers. The Army’s attempt to make everyone look the same is… peculiar. Shortly thereafter, combat hard chargers are gonna do something to look cooler and set themselves apart. Again. And this vicious cycle will continue. Can’t anyone see this? From Vietnam, to BDUs, to sleeves, black USMC boots, MARPAT, ACU, AAAAARGH! Get zillions of dollars to make everyone uniquely awesome and the best at their jobs.
This waste of money and time is absurd and has to stop. Disagree? Say the Army gets its way and wears MARPAT right the f now, will the be rendered more invisible on the battlefield than I was??? Come on people. Sure, some crazy SOF operator could possibly be 13%* more stealthy (**enter real nerdy computer algorithm generated result here) while sneaking deep behind enemy lines and knife Mister Towelhead in the hairy asterisk in the name of taxpayer America. All the same, during most of my time in the deserts of my life, I worked at my sandy office wanting to be seen. As a diplomat of our country and a guest in another dude’s land, I tried to be fair, friendly but professional and with a hard to kill attitude. It is all about the mindset, and unfortunately the Marine Corps forte is their high standards as a combat entity. Marine Gen. Mattis said: “Be courteous, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.” That is poetry, and we need more of that.
This issue is not about uniforms. I wore a shitload of gear on top of my frog suit, which leaves only the helmet, sleeves and legs visible. I was a Heavy Machine Gunner, I was sweaty and had to baby wipe my ass so I could smell like a baby and morale would still be high. I wanted to look sharp and be so insane as the hand that bites an enemy punch, that the enemy POGs are to blame (People Other than Grunts). While all POGs (People Other than Grunts) are necessary and not all bad, their combat standards are pitiful. One look over the The general Army is really a pain in the ass. As design, the SOF operators, motivated infantry and hardcore-minded combat arms are our nations door kickers and life takers. They are a pain in the ass to face in combat. Think like a scientist It would be unpleasant if I wa USMC MARSOCThat is the servicemembers under , and some good infantry units and motivated Combat arms. There are huge POGs with budget funds, a low sense of self-esteem and try their best at increasing morale, identity and other “awesomefication” ideals. Yet it systematically seeks to “look” or usurp the reputation of better others. I wish I could execute all these imbeciles with no repercussion. They are thieves of someone else’s thunder. I am sure such money could soon be rescued by some bright Army General, many of whom I admire, and put into proper use to make our country’s military even better. Now let us leave every sector of our DoD unique, proficient, and like all Divas, obsessed with themselves in a friendly competition to do more for the advancement of human free civilization and our lasting success as a species. It is mental quagmires like this that boggle down our group like a bunch of maggots in a pasty excrement. Semper Freedom to all, and please excuse my French. – Sincere Grunt for Mankind
December 12th, 2012 at 1:33 am
The US Marines Corps “OWN” the rights to the camouflage “Pattern” and under US Patent Laws can allow others to “Wear” the uniform at their discretion.
It’s the same as a NFL team giving the rights to a company like McDonald’s to use in it’s advertising.
If your uniform is as shitty as the ARMY (Aren’t Ready for Marines Yet)…
All I can say is, it SUCKs to be you.
Gung Ho
December 12th, 2012 at 1:37 am
PS: I “EFFIN” hate seeing the rag-heads in my UNIFORM !!!
I’d let any US Soldier wear it before I gave it to them !!!
HOOAH to my brothers in arms !!!
December 19th, 2012 at 7:20 am
Though the Marines ( especially their sergeant major ) went a little bit overboard over Marpat, they do have a point, legally speaking. Having patented the design, they do have the rights to it.
As for the whole ” it’s the taxpayers money anyway ” thing, let us not forget that while it is the US taxpayers who shoulder the expenses, the Marines ( and the Amy ) repay every single damned cent of it with their service and , sometimes, their lives.
December 19th, 2012 at 7:38 am
All this hooplah thrown against the Corps is nothing more than petty jealousy, really. The Army is just pissed because the Marines are more popular than them, whether deserved or not.
In my opinion ( I am not an American, so I know I’m being objective ), all these accusations about the Marine PR machine being responsible for the current pop status of the Corp are plain dumb and ignorant, as if implying that ALL people who see the Marines as on another level than the doggies are stupid and naive. Give me a break.
December 19th, 2012 at 9:27 am
m16a4ish: obviously you don’t know much about US law, amigo – but since you’ve admitted you’re not an American, that stands to reason.
Patents owned by any element or agency of the US Government are the property of the US Government – not that element or agency. See Executive Order 10096, 23 Jan 1950. In particular, the MARPAT patent is owned by the US Government, not the Department of the Navy or USMC. The Department of the Navy is merely the patent holder, and administers that patent on behalf of the US Government. They are not the owner.
The only reason that MARPAT isn’t used DoD-wide is inter-service politics inside the 5-sided asylum, pure and simple.
December 31st, 2012 at 4:07 am
Thanks for the info, bro. Just wanna ask why the Corps was allowed to patent it as their own when it was against the law for an arm of the US government to do so?
This whole brouhaha wouldn’t have happened in the first place if the powers that be flatly told the USMC they couldn’t own the rights to Marpat. Either way, doggies made a 5 Billion boo-boo, and then clutched at straws ( or Marpat ) to try and save face. What’s worse, they are now choosing what they discarded bcoz of pixel envy : MultiCam.
So typical of the US Army.