The Durango Herald retraction
I swear, Katie Burford is like lightening. She sent us a link to her retraction of the Timmy Oliver fantasy at the Durango Herald, you should read the whole thing…and to her credit, Katie asked me for my DD214 and I sent her a copy. Baby steps….
EDITOR NOTE: The article has for some reason disappeared, so I got the text from a cache copy and put it below the link;
A story that appeared on Page 4A of the Herald on Sunday contained a detailed account by Timothy Oliver of his time serving in Afghanistan. Since the story ran, numerous questions have been raised about accuracy of this account.
Specifically, knowledgeable readers found reason to doubt his service in the Army’s elite Delta Force.
Oliver, when reached by phone, said he could not provide any documentation to support his account or show that he had served in the military.
“You can run a retraction with my apologies if somebody was offended,” he said.
He maintained that he had served but said any evidence of it would be classified.
“I was trying to help people out, but I can’t prove this one,” he said.
Jonn Lilyea, a retired infantry platoon sergeant, spends much of his time looking for people who provide inaccurate accounts of their military service and exposing them on his blog http://thisainthell.us/blog.
Lilyea was among more than a dozen people, many retired military, who emailed the Herald raising concerns about Oliver’s account.
Lilyea said he dedicated himself to ferreting out fakes because they are more common than many people would believe.
“With the Stolen Valor Act struck down by the Supreme Court, that leaves private citizens to protect the honor of soldiers,” he wrote in an email. “I like to think of This Ain’t Hell as the stocks and dunking chairs of the veteran internet community where we can expose the frauds and folks can come by and throw metaphorical rotten tomatoes at them.”
The Stolen Valor Act, introduced by former Colorado congressman John Salazar, made it illegal to lie about receiving the Medal of Honor and other prestigious military recognitions.
The law was struck down recently by the U.S. Supreme Court, which pointed to the First Amendment right to freedom of speech.
Oliver did not claim to be the recipient of a medal.
Lilyea said the media should do a better job of policing accounts of military service. This includes asking vets to show their bona fides, such as a DD Form 214, which details service history and is issued to every member upon discharge.
Oliver, when asked for a copy of his DD Form 214, said he did not have one.
Lilyea said there is nothing offensive about asking for proof.
“I don’t mind showing my discharge – I’m proud of my service – and I’m sure most real veterans don’t mind. Only the phonies would object,” he said.
When asked to provide a copy to the Herald, he quickly sent the one-page document by email.
July 2nd, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Outstanding work and good on Katie.
July 2nd, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Awesome. It’s human to make mistakes, but it takes a lot to make a mistake and raise your hand and take responsibility and make things right.
Kudos to Ms. Burford. Also, great job in teaching her the proper way to vet a veteran.
July 2nd, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Another Attaboy.
Not dismissing her effort, but YOU prompted it!
July 2nd, 2012 at 5:49 pm
Good to see the media doing their job and taking responsibility.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:11 pm
I emailed her with a “Bravo Zulu.”
She seems to be responsive and responsible, and woe betide the next faker/poseur who runs into her.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Wow, I’m impressed to see that they retracted the whole bullshit story. I’m thinking if they just knew a few important questions to ask anybody who has a story like that…
1.) What was your MOS?
2.) Where did you go to AIT (or whatever the branch their claiming calls it’s schools) and when…and how long?
3.) Can we see a copy of your DD214 with SS# etc blacked out?
4.) Is there anybody who can verify your story?
Anytime somebody says their DD214 is classified, it’s BULLSHIT
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Look, I am a reporter and I appreciate all your help. But you need to understand. Many in the press didn’t serve and even I, who hang around veterans every day and read blogs like this can’t make sense of the jargon. What would be nice is for y’all to make and keep on this site a primer for us reporters so we can do right, so we can avoid mistakes.
I learned the hard way several years ago with a faker back in 2005. Since then I have routinely asked for DD-214s but would I know a fake one if i saw it, probably not. And the truth is, some of these guys can tell whoopers with a straight face. I was able to pick up a fake story and avoid embarrassing myself a few years ago thanks to what I have learned over the years and being able to talk the talk, to some degree.
Honestly, what I have found that trips people up the most is asking about boot camp. Really, that’s something that most people don’t consider when they have a story concocted. Asking about general orders or fire watches or what not, if you didn’t serve, man, that’s a kicker. So, don’t hate on the media, We do our best. But when you are doing 14 things, a guy claims to be this and that, gives a good story, has a few things that makes it seem real, it’s easy to go wrong. Keep up the good work and the fight.
Andy Kravetz, reporter
Peoria (Ill.) Journal Star
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:47 pm
@Mr Kravetz
Sorry, but if the information cannot be proven, you are going to publish it anyway?
Why report on military matters if you cannot take the time to actually learn about the military? It’s like the clowns who call destroyers “battleships”… c’mon, take two seconds and read a frickin’ Wikipedia article.
George (CPO, Retired)
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:54 pm
Mr Kravetz – You may indeed have the utmost respect for veterans and report on these issues as fairly and as accurately as you are able.
But the simple fact remains….many of your peers do not. Not necessarily out of malice, but out of respect for the deadline or the sensationalism. Much of what gets reported on military matters violates the bare minimum of common knowledge available to members of the media, from a wide variety of reputable sources.
We see stories daily where research has a heavy emphasis in some respects [like politics or economics] but falls utterly flat where it regards ensuring facts about the military or those who served.
You appear to take pride in knowing your limitations in some areas of knowledge, and your efforts to overcome them…..I sincerely wish that more of your peers did likewise.
July 2nd, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Credit where credit is due, for the retraction, but I have to wonder what the point or intent of the original article was. It’s not as if it was a local Durango boy, hometown hero sort of story. Could it be that there is a form of wish fulfillment going on? Did he fit a pre-set narrative portraying veterans as “damaged goods” in order to make them more palatable in a left-leaning community like Durango?? (Durango is to Boulder as Boulder is to Berkeley) Or maybe it was all just an honest mistake by the reporter…
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:04 pm
Mr. Jorge, or just Jorge, I have been in the business for some 20 years. I have written things that, well, sucked, and I have written some things that didn’t. We all do. I have never met a single reporter while here in Peoria, working in Washington DC, Nashville or St. Louis, Mo. that has ever knowingly printed something that they didn’t believe was correct. Now, we might not do the research well enough. That you are correct about and that’s how I got into the military beat all those years ago… I hated seeing Marines called soldiers or vica versa.
But I do think that the difficulty in covering the service is the jargon, the words, the entire culture. It just don’t make sense unless you are around it enough. When you are a GA reporter (those without a beat who are assigned anything anytime anyplace. Think QRF), it’s hard to be knowledgeable about everything. If someone approaches you, appears honest, has a good story, has a few fake medals, pins, pictures, and appears to talk the talk, it’s hard to see through the BS.
Personally, the thing that struck me was the 1000s, of DF guys. I didn’t know Delta had that many. I kid but you get the idea. However, for the average person, they have no idea what Delta is. Hell, I’ll bet many in the service really don’t know what Delta is, really.
To me, this is a good discussion. I do think that the press needs to get its head out of its ass and make things right via the vets and those still in, but the military needs to stop seeing us as the bad guys, telling their troops or vets that we are out of ruin the world (and this has happened to me) and work with us. I have been lucky. I have two or three vets in the different branches I can call, confess I don’t know what I am talking about and they will walk me through it. The Web helps. If a WWII vet, I read up on their tour, where they were and their unit, that helps. But sometimes, you just don’t have the time. Alas.
Again, I love this blog and all that you all do. I have learned a ton, enjoyed the humor and been befuddled by some of the sayings but overall, it’s good. I appreciate the thoughts. Sorry for the typos, my computer’s screen is set really high res and my eyesight isn’t as good as it used to be.
Andy Kravetz
Peoria (Ill.) Journal Star
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Mr. Kravetz, it’s not all that difficult.
1. Ask for a DD214, every time. Learn what Blocks 13, 14,18 and 21 say, and compare it to their story.
2. Ask for his/her MOS, then look the MOS up, it’s simple.
3. Like you said, ask about their training, basic or boot, then AIT or whatever the other services call it.
4. Ask for the name of someone who can corroborate their story.
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:12 pm
And I try to do that. I am saying that not all reporters know to do that. A simple guide (and I would glad to help with such a thing) would be good. What you guys are typing right now seems obvious. walk into any newsroom around the nation and ask what a MOS is. Count the blank stares. I just asked our city hall reporter. He looked at me like I was an idiot.
Don’t misunderstand me. I agree with you. I am just saying that we reporters, at times, need help. A guide in a spot that people could look up for reference would be great.
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:15 pm
“Walk into any newsroom around the nation and ask what a MOS is”. Well, Bing is your,and their, friend. IF the reporters are motivated enough to write the story, they need to be motivated enough to do the background. Otherwise, they will end up looking the fool.
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Mr. Kravitz,
To echo “CI”, I appreciate your willingness to acknowledge the limitations of your knowledge. Shoot, there are many people who I’ve worked with who would argue for my continued vast inexperience.
Honestly, no one knows everything. Like many other people, I take people at face value and when they say they are a Vietnam Vet, then I believe them. It’s really unfortunate that we know have to ask them a battery of questions only to find out that they were born in 1979.
The best course of action (in my opinion at least) is to be careful, ask for documentation, if it looks suspicious (i.e. incomplete, bad copy, or doesn’t pass the “sniff test”) ask more questions. Shoot, even organizations that deal with vets all the time get fooled by fastidious fakers.
The worst ones seem to be the ones who have served honorably and can “talk the talk” so to speak, but are embellishing their records. That’s when it requires a group to huddle over the documentation and for someone who’s been to school XYZ to say “Hey, that isn’t right!”.
My final bit of advice is to remember that 99% of what the military does isn’t very exciting (exciting enough to sell stories that is). If it sounds like it’s straight out of a movie script, chances are that it’s made up.
Very Respectfully,
IW
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:28 pm
@Mr Kravetz
Please pardon my use of “you.” I should have used “one.”
Anyway, I appreciate, as many others do, when folks take the time to check the source. I apologize if it seemed I was attacking you.
Yeah, a couple of thousand direct action guys at one time should have raised eyebrows
There is a tendency to try to beat the clock… witness the MSM during the health care vote the other day. Gotta get the story out first, or else.
George
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:28 pm
Mr. Kravetz (sorry for misspelling your name),
Every military unit of some stripe or another has a Public Affairs Officer (PAO). If someone claims to be from ABC unit out of Naval Station/Camp/Fort Whatever, contact that PAO to get some assistance.
If time is short, Google/Bing works great too. (Said by “UpNorth” already, but certainly bears repeating.)
Very respectfully,
IW
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:31 pm
UpNorth-those are good suggestions, but there are probably good fakes out there who can get around them easily enough (if they cared to take the time and make the effort that is, most don’t).
It’s telling that we don’t see stories like this coming from the Fayetteville Observer, Virginian-Pilot or Clarksville Leaf-Chronicle because those reporters are around military culture a lot and can smell a fake (I stand waiting to be corrected on those papers or others close to military posts having been taken by fakes in the past).
Mr. Kravetz-I have been in the Army, in one shape or form, for most of my adult life, but I also was a stringer for a couple of small dailies here in Western NC from the early ’80s until the mid ’90s. That was when the newspaper was at its Zenith (more advertising dollars, just before the rise of the internet, etc.), so I understand the culture of the newsroom (I also delivered papers for a short time). Kudos to both you and Ms. Buford, but far too many reporters still have the mindset that they control the news and those days are long gone.
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:48 pm
Actually, my final, final thoughts on the matter (pinky swear)…
People who have seen and done extraordinary things very rarely cold call reporters and tell them “Boy, have I got a story for you!” They also very rarely brag or boast about what they’ve done or have participated in.
People like Admiral James Stockdale or Colonel George Day have written and even spoke about their experiences in some cases, but they never tried to milk their actions or experiences for sheer publicity.
O.k. I promise I’m shutting up now.
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:51 pm
Hmm. Couple of thoughts.
One, excellent response in outting the poser. I appreciate it.
Two, Mr. Kravetz, hate to mention it, but you could post any concerns you have about an individual right here. I’m just sayin…
July 2nd, 2012 at 7:53 pm
As for PAOs, don’t get me started. Some of them are worse than the grunts themselves. I was once nearly thrown into the brig at a homecoming when I was asked by the unit to be there as well, they liked my stuff. PAO didn’t appreciate it and I sat in a FOX news truck (really, the irony) watching it live.
And there are good fakers. And there are just reporters who want to be nice. I don’t want to question a WWII vet who is being interviewed for a Memorial Day story or what not. same thing as for a Vietnam vet.
Honestly, what I have found and tell me if I am wrong, the people who were there, don’t talk. they don’t need to. They did it, lived it and felt it. They will talk if they want but you have to pry. What you’ll get are humor or tidbits or whatever.
People who embellish or flat out fake, I have found, are the talkers. When someone wants to tell me about a bad-ass battle, that’s when my flags go up. We had a guy here get the Silver Star or action on 9 April 2004. Talking to him was like pulling teeth. The guys, however, who were back on the FOB, told me all about it.
Andy
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:07 pm
@Andy Kravets, if someone tells you he was in the Navy, then he should also be able to tell you what his rate is, which is the same thing as the Army’s MOS. It’s the title for a job description, as in my rate PH2, which is Photographer’s Mate Second Class. Job descriptions are never classified. The actual work done by an individual may be classified, but after a period of time, like 40 years after the end of the Vietnam War, it’s usually declassified.
The atomic bomb and hydrogen bomb tests in the Pacific at Bikini atoll were finally declassified and the images published in national magazines.
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:11 pm
Mr Kravetz-Jeremy Church? It’s an outstanding story. We rightly remember Matt Maupin, but PFC Church’s story is worth repeating (same for PFC Patrick Miller in comparison to Jessica Lynch-as Paul Harvey would have said its “the rest of the story”).
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:17 pm
@ #18 (68W58): You’d be surprised – even the Fayetteville Observer has published this sort of fakery before. Here’s an example from last year, along with their follow-up the next day:
Article: http://m.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/07/04/1106001?path=/articles/2011/07/04/1106001
Follow-up: http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/07/06/1106304?sac=Home
Maybe someone else can correct me, but I never even saw them admit outright they were wrong, just that the claims were ‘challenged’. Amongst my favorite claims right at the start? The ‘Emperor’ of Saudi Arabia gave him an award.
The point is, it’s hard to get everything right when you’re not a domain expert. The efforts of Ms. Burford and Mr. Kravetz to correct errors and educate themselves certainly puts them above many of their peers, and for that, I’m thankful.
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Mr. Kravetz, this is a good starting point when you are looking into information about an Enlisted MOS. And hey; you have a good pool of people here to draw on when someone seems too good to be believed. -:-)
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:37 pm
LC-well, they let the story get into the paper so bad cess to them, but I will note that the story originated in the Kinston paper. Now Kinston is close enough to Camp Lejeune that I would hope that they would know the drill, but apparently not. What I think would happen if the story had come to the Fayetteville Observer originally would be that they would toss it to their military affairs reporter who would be able to ask the right questions/know how to do the right research to prevent publication. Anyway, some editor screwed up so they don’t get a pass. I stand corrected.
July 2nd, 2012 at 8:39 pm
LC – in fairness to the FO, the story you cited that was run by the FO was a wire service story the FO picked up, not a story written by one of their reporters. The follow-up appears to be a FO story. And the editor of the paper publishing the original story is quoted in the follow-up as flat-out saying that the guy was a fake.
July 2nd, 2012 at 9:22 pm
#24-LC The point is, it’s hard to get everything right when you’re not a domain expert. The efforts of Ms. Burford and Mr. Kravetz to correct errors and educate themselves certainly puts them above many of their peers, and for that, I’m thankful.
Well put amigo! Well put….As long as Andy & Katie continue to graze this site and bless us with their presence, they will continue to learn a lot.
garryowen
July 2nd, 2012 at 9:24 pm
I think Andy’s got a great idea.
A small primer that can be used by journalists to vet a DD-214. There are common mistakes, and there are common lies, on a 214 (as well as a 215).
It could include a link to a page that lists the MOS, rates, etc.. of the different branches (I’m sure the branches already have these), locations of schools, common abbreviations, etc…
Of course, a particularly stubborn fraud could use said page to try and make their documents “bullet-proof”, but the end result should ALWAYS be collaborating the story with others or PAO’s anyway.
July 2nd, 2012 at 9:31 pm
Now days there is a simple method of determining if one’s DD214 is real or not. NPRC uses a stamp when its issued. Raised little bump thing,lower right hand side. Do believe that 1stCAVRVN can verify that since he has a certified copy of mine.
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:17 pm
I would only caution that I could show you my latest DD214 (from my AGR service) and most of you would call it a fake–it was THAT poorly done. I need to get a 215 issued before the next round of boards….
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:23 pm
streetsweeper-I don’t think my last DD 214 (issued at Camp Shelby in January of this year) has any such stamp.
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Mr. Kravetz,
I’m sorry, I forgot we were talking about military PAO’s for a second….yeah they are jerks, I stand corrected.
Also, like PH2 said, the Navy publishes a NEC (Naval Education Code) manual that lists all the NEC’s for all the rates in the Navy. Can be found via Google.
Also found here: http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/enlisted/detailing/personnelreadiness/Pages/NECInformation.aspx
BUPERS is your friend for Navy info.
V/R,
IW
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:35 pm
First and foremost, let me applaud Ms Katie Buford. That is the kind of honesty and integrity I’d like to see in her profession. I’ll accept that their morality means mistakes will occasionally occur, but the retraction shouldn’t be buried in small print at the bottom of page 10. I have respect for her for owning her error.
In the more general discussion, journalists have the option of getting to know and befriending REAL Veterans, so they can check those little details that WE understand that the world doesn’t. A 214 from WWII is different from one from 1990, from 1999, from 2010. Most frauds won’t take the time to make it look right anyway, as they’re too lazy to find out that Navy Majors don’t exist. Most stories are generally verifiable with a couple of insider questions.
That being said, there’s a reason Veterans walk away when a journalist shows up, and that’s because they know too many stories of Vets getting burned, of the MSM putting their political twist on it, of misportrayals, betrayals, trickery, and other misdeeds. For the journalist that proves themselves, over time, there will likely be a few Vets who extend their trust.
Andy, I’ll do something I rarely do: plug a book I’ve never read, based solely on conversations with the author, Isaac Cubillos:
Military Reporters Stylebook and Reference Guide, 2nd Edition
Perfect-bound: 162 pages
Publisher: Bronze Warriors Press; (2010)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1466316985
ISBN-13: 978-1466316980
Product Dimensions: 6 x 9 x 1 inches
Shipping Weight: 1 pound
Isaac has been reporting on the military for decades, and seems to understand his subject, as well as maintain objectivity. His loyalty is to his profession, and that’s why he wrote the book.
I’m less enamored with journalists than he is and their employers and bosses, as too often I’ve seen the events they misreported on, and known the people whom they misrepresented or tricked into trusting them. To Isaac’s credit, he understood my disdain for journalists, and seemed wishful that it could return to its days as an honorable profession.
But like you said Andy, the fakers are far more likely to talk about themselves, to brag about their own exploits, than are the guys that did it.
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:41 pm
I can understand the reporters’ confusion. Even within the same branch of the service, different communities may use the same acronym for different things. As it pertains to not always applying a critical eye to someone’s story, I can tell you that there are plenty of medical people in uniform that are guilty of the same crime. Even when you lay out all of the information demonstrating the individual is exaggerating claims (usually to avoid punishment or for financial gain) there is a great reluctance to confront the would be story teller or throw up the BS flag. Putting aside the “customer is always right” mentality and the fear of congressionals, most medical personnel are acutely aware that they are not in the worst of the thick of it (except our corpsmen which are absolutely amazing) and they avoid scrutinizing the story out of fear that skepticism may be viewed by those whose story is legitimate as disrespectful. I would imagine that politics and deadlines aside, reporters may avoid drilling down hard for the same reasons. That doesn’t make it any less nececssary though (despite what some of my colleagues believe).
At the end of the day, other vets that know the person or were there are almost always the best resource both for those that are faking bad (exxaggerating for benefit) or faking good. Many places with a high veteran population, like Lejeune, have retiree associations. I’ve been to their meetings and some of these double of triple war vets would be tickled to have a reporter run a story by them to see if it passes the sniff test.
July 2nd, 2012 at 10:58 pm
@ 27 (Hondo): Thanks for the correction – I had read the original article and only the title of the follow-up, missing where the editor had identified the guy as a fake. Ironically that makes me guilty of the same lack of due diligence I was annoyed at them for, so I guess I’ll cut them some slack after all. While it’s unfortunate that reporters sometimes get things wrong, it’s also clear we all do – I’ll save all my scorn for the fools who perpetrate these acts of idiocy instead.
July 3rd, 2012 at 12:25 am
Hey she made it right, no complaints here. Timmah, however, is obviously in need of a decent and prolonged flogging.
July 3rd, 2012 at 12:48 am
I have not yet read all the above comments.
Mr. KRAVETZ, up above:
All you “journalists” have big and far-ranging mouths.
There are many of you, few of us.
Instead of flattering This Ain’t Hell and saying “sorry” perhaps you should pressure the Journalism Professors and your bosses (editors), in order to prove your sincerity.
Just saying, a mere suggestion.
I am not a cynic — I require verification .
July 3rd, 2012 at 12:54 am
Mr. Kravetz: — NO, YOU have to understand, and you’ve a very long way to go. Form your own damned “primer.” Read a few thousand books, get YOUR OWN education, and think for a few YEARS, before you ever speak to me again .
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:10 am
I’m afraid that the reality is that many reporters and journalists probably do not care about these things.
I mean, they all don’t live in a vacuum right? Or are the majority of them truly clueless when it comes to posers and properly vetting veterans? Is it a part of them that they think it is “rude” and whatnot to question a veteran’s claims, that it would somehow be “disrespectful?”
Because this is just one person that is bending over backwards to right a wrong.
How many reporters and journalists are out there? Who wants to bet that in a few weeks (or even sooner) we’ll read of yet another person making ridiculous Spec Ops claims, and the reporter takes it at face value. Then is embarrassed, and is forced to apologize for it.
It happens time and time and time again.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:52 am
I am trying to read it and all I get it a message that states, “The article requested cannot be found! Please refresh your browser or go back. (DU,20120702,NEWS01,707029905,AR).”
And this is while from trying to access it directly from the link to “Stolen Valor” on the scumbag’s original article.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:19 am
I went to a couple of other pages on the Herald’s website and managed to find the retraction, it is located at http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20120703/NEWS01/707029905/-1/News
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:02 am
DR_BRETT @39; way to be a complete asswipe. Mr. Kravetz comes here, admits there are issues with respect to normal (i.e. civilian) reporters and details of military service, and asks for a primer on the basics of how to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Instead of offering useful suggestions, you say “Read a few thousand books.” Really? That’s the best you can come up with? What if you had to do some quick’n'dirty research on computers? Can you explain the difference between big-endian and little-endian processors? Can you discuss some of the basic points of compiler design? What’s the best approach for an optimizing compiler? How about a layman’s explanation of numeric inaccuracy using floating-point computation? Can you do a compare & contrast between two different processors, and their relative efficiency? (hint: a 1Mz Motorola 6502 was in many ways faster than a 4.77Mz Intel 8088)
Let’s shift the argument a tiny bit; you’re a reporter, and you encounter a story about claimed hacking, and the most technical thing you can do with a computer is turn it on. Do you turn to Google (bad idea), read “a few thousand books, get your own education,” or look for a FAQ or a primer?
I know computers pretty well (my first system ran CP/M), and I wouldn’t piss on a reporter by telling him/or to “get your own education.” In fact, there’s an in-joke about jerks in ComputerWorld who reply “RTFM” (Read The Fracking Manual) to every question. That response is both inconsiderate & rude.
You, sir, are the end result of years of blood, toil, tears, and sweat; and I thank you for your service. What you -alas- seem to fail to realize is that your expertise is hard-won from those (many) years. It is unfair to expect a newbie to jump right in and demonstrate the same level of knowledge. It is doubly unfair to blow them off with snarky suggestions to “RTFM,” especially when they have a story to publish in the next 2 to 4 days.
It is unfair -not to mention unrealistic- to expect reporters to become armed forces experts just so they can file a single story in the same way it is unfair to expect them to be instant experts (or develop “years” of reading) on finance, the law, sports, drugs, the environment, physics, or agriculture.
July 3rd, 2012 at 5:20 am
streetsweeper: have to concur with 68W58. None of my DD214s – all issued at active Army installations – have any type of raised imprint.
NPRC may imprint copies they issue from official records, but in my experience the ones issued during separation have been simply printed on regular paper. The only exception was the first, which was done on the old-style multi-part preprinted form.
July 3rd, 2012 at 5:43 am
@#32 68W58 – The seal used is like that of a notary public when a copy of a DD214 is requested and issued by NPRC ST Louis. It’s their certification the document is issued by them (NPRC) and not a document mill. That is the mark I see and feel on FOIA DD-214′s I request. I take it since you ETS’d at Shelby, you must have been MSANG? Thanks for your service and welcome home, bro.
July 3rd, 2012 at 6:07 am
streetsweeper: processing-out at Camp Shelby doesn’t necessarily imply MS ARNG service. During the mid/late 2000s the Army conducted predeployment training for many USAR units deploying to the CENTCOM AOR at Shelby. The norm was for those units to return to Shelby for outprocessing at the end of their tour.
Army individual augmentees were handled differently at the time. They generally received predeployment training elsewhere (mine was at CRC-Benning, but I understand Bliss was also used). Augmentees also returned to their predeployment training location to outprocess.
July 3rd, 2012 at 7:13 am
streetsweeper-TNARNG. Thanks, I was not aware that St. Louis used an official stamp(never requested one from them).
July 3rd, 2012 at 7:51 am
Andy, IW, et. al. – I’m a former Army PAO, and it sounds like some of the ones you’ve dealt with are absolute shitbags, who take themselves entirely too seriously, and have forgotten what their job and their mission is. A PAO’s job is to help the press get the military story out – as accurately as possible – and to promote the military to the community. That’s not going to happen if you alienate them, turn them away or try to hinder their mission. They foster confidence in the military, not exercise their AUTHORITAH! over the press. It sounds like you guys have dealt with a lot of that crap, and that sucks.
I would encourage the press to do a lot of research, but we shouldn’t just blow the reporters off if they’re asking for help, or clarification. It helps them get our story out better and more accurately. There’s a reason that the military is America’s most trusted institution year after year, and it’s not because we tell reporters to go pound sand or hinder their mission.
Just my 2 cents.
Boy, am I glad I’m no longer in that field!
July 3rd, 2012 at 7:55 am
This is also part of journalism….
Make a mistake, own up to it, print a correction or retraction. Hat tip to Katie, she did exactly as she was suposed to.
@Andy,
come and ask all the questions you like. Posers can sometimes be hard to spot, especially the ones with actual prior service that are embellishing. Hell, they are able to scam the VA for benefits. And before anyone here gets high and mighty Jonn has busted a few that were long time members of VSO’s like the American Legion. Posers can hang around vets at VSO’s and pass themselves off and we get indignant when they slip past reporters?
July 3rd, 2012 at 9:24 am
A primer would be a wonderful thing – for the serious frauds to read and really beef up their game.
July 3rd, 2012 at 9:34 am
Well, Dr. Brett, I am not going to get into a pissing match as it will just come back on my employer and that ain’t good. I do read books, I have been around the service and I do try. Truth is most people have no idea what an 11B is let alone all the modifiers that go behind it nor should they. It’s a military thing for the Army. Marines are 0311, if I remember right.
That’s not the idea. Take a swipe at me. I am fine with it. The vets I cover and the units I am responsible for daily are cool with me and frankly, that’s all I need. And no this isn’t a defiant email. I just don’t get why some people don’t see the obvious. There are stories upon stories about the growing gulf between the military and civilians. It’s not just me, my friend. I just try to bridge it.
And don’t forget, I don’t work for the Herald. I work for the PJS.
July 3rd, 2012 at 9:36 am
@Nicki, most PAOs are great. Ours with the IANG are super and the Air Guard people are terrific. The Marines, eh, hit or miss. I have found that AD guys tend to be more stand-offish and if they hear I am from out of town, they are even more so. That said, I dealt with someone in the 25th ID who was amazing. He was in Hawaii and I was, well, in Peoria, Ill. Was super. I guess it goes case to case.
Most people are good and honest and cool if you just get to know them. I have found.
Andy
July 3rd, 2012 at 9:42 am
Dr Brett: I respectfully submit that you’re putting your rounds downrange at the wrong target (Mr. Kravetz).
July 3rd, 2012 at 9:52 am
Andy, a little more on that “primer” you were asking for: http://militaryreporter.net/
That’s Isaac’s site, and I believe Our Veterans here will appreciate that he calls out the “bigs” when they screw up stories like Bales, and journalists with integrity will appreciate that he is trying to help them understand military terminology, so they don’t come off sounding like idiots.
I may maintain a dim view of your colleagues in general, but I judge individuals on their own merits, even if they have to overcome that generalized deficit their colleagues have established.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:37 am
Took a look at the link in 54, WOTN. I also contacted them and suggested they add POWNetwork and TAH to their list of Journalists’ Resources.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:38 am
Great site. I have linked to it. I belong to MRE (military reporters and editors) and they have a good Web site as well. I agree that a primer might help fakers but honestly, those guys are like the criminals I cover (my main beat at the paper is legal affairs) in that they are “much” smarter than the rest of us.
As for @68W from last night. It was Jeremy Church and it was (is) a great story. The 724th TC did great things that day.
And finally, sorry to comment so much and hijack a thread. I didn’t mean it this way and well, I should probably take some of these posts off line or through email. So I’ll relax now. Thanks again for all that you all do. Really, this blog does a service to vets and well, it’s funny as hell at times.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:48 am
I would suggest that a GA reporter would be well-served to develop a relationship with a local VFW or American Legion post. There will be vets from WWII -> GWOT hanging out there every day, and if you’re respectful, you can probably have them vet any stories/documents/copy you put together. And if they’re stand-offish, there will be another one a few miles down the road you can try.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:56 am
“Many in the press didn’t serve and even I, who hang around veterans every day and read blogs like this can’t make sense of the jargon.”
I didn’t serve. I can understand it.
It’s called research (for me, a bunch of undergrad military history courses). I know most J-school majors don’t seem to place a great deal of importance on it, but there it is.
Shit, you can Google most everything today. Or easily find a good source. If a reporter fucks up today it’s because they’re (1)stupid (2)malicious or (3)lazy. Or a combination of all three (having met a bunch of J-schoolers in my day I lean towards (1)).
Here’s an example from you.
“What you guys are typing right now seems obvious. walk into any newsroom around the nation and ask what a MOS is. Count the blank stares. I just asked our city hall reporter. He looked at me like I was an idiot.”
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MOS
First link is to a company, so since that’s no the military that’s out. Second link is a Museum in Boston, so that’s out. huh, third link. Military related. Describes the whole thing. Neat-o.
Anyway, as a military history guy and a gun guy I see a lot of utter crap written by journalists that could have been avoided by a few minutes of research. I don’t buy this, “But we don’t know about this subject and learning is hard” nonsense. Learn, it’s your job. If you don’t want to learn, don’t write about stuff you don’t know about. That’s like if I (a guy who studied military history, the colonization of the America, and a bit of Africa) suddenly decided to write an article about the oxford comma. Totally out of my lane. Yet reporters do it all the time and cry about how hard life is when somebody calls them a moron.
This post may seem mean, but that’s just because I really really hate journalists. You guys don’t need a “primer”. You need to utilize the plethora research tools available and some critical thinking.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:58 am
Although, in fairness, “science” reporters for non-science publications are my favorite. I love to watch those big NASA press conferences where you can just see and hear the utter contempt coming from the scientists. It’s like they’re using their science skills to figure out how these journalists are able to ask such stupid questions and operate their lower bodily functions at the same time.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:59 am
There should be a sequence diagram given to as many media outlets as possible throughout the country, and publicized throughout the world wide web. TAH can take the lead on this.
This sequence diagram will be a brief guide on how to properly ‘vet’ someone claiming to be a veteran and telling war stories.
For example, it would start off with something like “Veteran Status,” and have two lines coming off it. If the person claims to be a mechanic or cook in the military, it branches off into another “tree” where there is less suspicion (if individual doesn’t make any outrageous claims, person gets a ‘pass’ and is good to go).
However, if person claims to be Ranger, SEAL, Special Forces, etc., it branches off to another tree where there is more scrutiny (ask for DD-214, where person trained, unit, etc. etc.), and ultimately to contact individuals/organizations with more expertise in the matter (POW network, etc.).
Only then should these stories be published.
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:59 am
Andy, I’m glad most of your experiences with military PAOs were positive. I’ve always said you have to love this job with a passion to do it, and some are just there to be there. We had an amazing Army spokesman a few years ago named Paul Boyce. He worked at OCPA and was probably the most responsive, intelligent, respectful and thoughtful man I’d ever dealt with. His replacement, unfortunately, barely answers emails. I’m told to give him a chance, but so far it’s not looking good for the home team.
You will always find people to help you with accurate info, even if it’s not the first time around. The only thing I’d ask is that the media actually makes an effort to get said info instead of going with the first thing they find. Not aimed at you, personally, but as a general comment.
July 3rd, 2012 at 11:04 am
@44: You are correct. The one I received, by request, from St. Louie has the raised seal to prove it was officially from them. My original did not.
July 3rd, 2012 at 11:13 am
Jonn, the article’s URL was apparently changed – but a link to it is still on the front page of the Durango Herald as of now. The new URL is
http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20120703/NEWS01/707029905/Stolen-valor?
The question mark at the end IS necessary.
July 3rd, 2012 at 11:33 am
First … excellent retraction and follow up by Katie Burford.
Andy Kravetz,
I agree entirely with my associates above and particularly their recommendations regarding verifying and the veracity of information provided by a subject. Those measures should ALWAYS be employed. There are some other tools available: allow the subject to freely speak and take copious notes; circle back to those notes; record their incongruent responses; continue forward with deeper questions; observe their respiration frequency; take note of eye movements and facial expressions; check body position, language, and posture; view the surface veins adjacent to the temples and count the beats of the jugular veins; and finally … the gut check … if you FEEL the subject is lying … the subject probably IS. We are all wired to sense or feel deception. Once deception is detected and scrupulously verified … PUNCH THE SUBJECT IN THE THROAT!
July 3rd, 2012 at 11:36 am
Here’s an updated link to the retraction: http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20120703/NEWS01/707029905/0/SEARCH/Stolen-valor?
July 3rd, 2012 at 12:21 pm
As a veteran and journalist, I’ve been on both sides of the equation and answering them.
For a piece I just did for the NY Times “At War” blog they asked me to send my D214 for verification – so media outlets ARE starting to realize that this is a growing problem.
Truth is, it’s always been a problem, but before the internet the liars could only operate in a small sphere of influence…and the reverse was true, as it was very difficult to debunk anyone if you can’t reach a wide audience. So the spotlight will be a benefit, as these wanna-bes increase (oh, and they will) over the next few years.
If it makes us feel any better, it’s not a US-only problem. I read an article years ago about North Vietnamese “veterans” claiming participation against the US, and getting benefits, etc, from the communist government. It probably didn’t work out quite so well for them, when they were discovered.
As for Andy Kravetz, he’s doing exactly the right thing coming here – this website IS a solid, reputable source of information. If in the future, a reporter had questions, I think it totally makes sense to come here and ask some general questions about what to be suspicious about, and what questions to ask and what documentation is needed.
So unless I’m wrong, I think Kravetz and any reporter should be welcome here when this subject comes up in their reporting. This is a pretty good opportunity to be part of a system of safeguards, and not magpies on the sidelines.
Like has been said, a real veteran will be proud to show his DD214, because it basically documents legit service. If you’ve got real awards, etc., damn right you’ll want to show them off!
It’s the same old story – nobody ever lies that they were a cook, supply clerk, mechanic, etc…and yet those jobs are always filled…funny how that works.
As for Army journalists, I can sum up my 1991 “wartime” experience this way: “Cup of coffee in one hand, doughnut in the other, there I was in Riyadh, watching CNN!”
But, hey, my SWA ribbons are on the DD214 – you can look it up!
July 3rd, 2012 at 12:25 pm
First line should read, “As a veteran and journalist, I’ve been on both sides of the equation, asking questions and answering them.”
July 3rd, 2012 at 6:02 pm
ANY reporter (just about) who starts out “You have to understand . . .” will receive from me, what I nicely told “Mr.” Kravetz.
I do not judge, that the “professional reporters” who have done untold destruction to America, and who are the Professor’s Goons, should receive anything but scorn, UNTIL, they have proven BY MANY YEARS, that they’re worth a damn.
I do not know anything about the !@#$ who “characterized” me, above — thus, I do NOT give him the courtesy of direct reply.
NO, I have NEVER been “diplomatic” —
look what the diplomats (and so-called “journalists”) have done to the world.
July 3rd, 2012 at 6:19 pm
No. 58 Spade:
I like your comment.
By The Way, if anyone does NOT like a response from me, especially one in which I salute or admire, feel free to respond, and say: “I don’t care to hear from you again.” — no problem.
July 3rd, 2012 at 7:34 pm
@ 48 Niki,
Truth be told, I was thinking of Navy PAO’s when I made my comment. Sorry about that!
Seriously, sometimes I wonder where the public gets the idea that the military is full of gruff, unsmiling, humorless people … and then I run into them and have to work with them.
Very Respectfully,
IW
July 3rd, 2012 at 10:33 pm
Hondo,
Guard and Reserve units are still processing through Shelby. I went through there in the past 6 months and am downrange now.
July 3rd, 2012 at 11:11 pm
No. 53 MARINE_7002:
Thanks, I just now read your comment !!
(That is unfortunate.)
My No. 39 explains what I objected to in Comment No. 7:
“I appreciate all your help. But YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND.” — “. . . and EVEN I, . . .”
(Condescending Attitude)
If I don’t know a great deal about a particular “reporter” over a LONG time, I ASSUME HE IS OF SMALL CHARACTER — I AM SAYING IT ALOUD .
Please spell out — the Correct Target downrange.
I am ALWAYS ready to learn from a Marine.
Respectfully,
US ARMY War Veteran.
(I wish I had seen your comment earlier — excuse me.)
July 4th, 2012 at 4:28 am
There is a difference talking about the military, which is fine, and talking about your personal ‘exploits’ during your career. If I were a reporter covering the military, my alarm bells would start ringing the moment someone crossed into the ‘I did this, and won that’ realm. There is a lot of confusing jargon out there to learn, but the main thing you need to listen for, is “I, me, Ultimate Badass,’ lingo. That is pretty easy to spot. Of course, you should ask anyone for documentation, wether they sound like theyre full of it or not, but especially demand proof of anything that smacks of boasting…and by the way, I am sure there are plenty of proud soldiers who can back it up, and the honest ones wont mind doing so.
July 4th, 2012 at 5:08 am
DR_BRETT. I read your comments. They make you sound like an ass. You may not be, but you sure sound like one.
July 4th, 2012 at 8:41 am
Thanks for the update, Jon the Mechanic. Didn’t know if that was still the case and didn’t want to assume.
Be careful out there, amigo.
July 4th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Mr. Kravetz, what Sgt. E said. I’m friends with a couple of reporters with the Arizona Republic who call or e-mail me any time they are writing about the military. (I served in the Marine Corps) Thanks to the many members here, from all branches, and the reference material mentioned I can speak with a reasonable chance I can give them correct information. Make friends (read, buy them beer) with a couple of members of your local American Legion, VFW or DAV and I’m 99.9% positive they’ll be glad to help you out. Thank you for caring about trying to get it right.
July 4th, 2012 at 11:45 am
No. 74:
Thanks for noticing the comments, SGT.
I have MY OWN form of speaking and writing — it is not always the most ordinary .
July 6th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
As a former Marine (MOS 6315, Aug. 1978-Aug. 1982) and a member of the news media, I rise in defense of the news business and journalists.
I am between full-time news jobs now, and recently in a job interview with an editor whose father was career Navy, we got into a chat about the need for accuracy in military reporting.
I’ve worked as a copy editor, and facts and accuracy are an obsession for me. It’s really easy to act surprised that the reporter took steps to undo the damage she caused, but that happens a lot.
Military fakers have been profiled, but no one realizes that stories often are stopped in their tracks and not finished or published because someone in the newsroom realizes that a source is lying. I’ve seen it with not only fake military but fake police and fake firefighters.
In late 2004, I was working at one paper and was the reason our Veterans Day edition did not have a profile of a Vietnam veteran. We’d started one, and were editing it and laying it out when I realized that the person being profiled was too young to have served in Vietnam.
Mainly this was thanks to B.G. Burkett’s book, “Stolen Valor,” and the stories he told about guys who were the wrong age for the exploits they were describing.
I initially thought maybe the reporter had given his age wrong (47 instead of 57, which would have been the right age) but found out that the guy had been telling stories to the reporter.
The subject had served in the military – in the late 1970s, after Vietnam.
The story was canceled and the paper took some heat from local veterans, but a lesson was learned and shared. I later organized a presentation by myself, a fellow former Marine corporal who was a reporter, and a retired Marine sergeant major who also worked for the paper in its administration to explain the best practices for covering the military.
Accuracy is paramount, I always say, when it comes to covering the military. From ranks to ribbons to jobs and so much more, veterans want the coverage to be right, and I want it to be right, too. My heart aches when I read a story and find out it’s wrong.
One time, we had a story of a combat veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan who had raced off on a motorcycle and went to a remote area, where he accidentally started a brush fire that killed him. A reporter with zero knowledge of the military was assigned to the story, and I was assigned to copy edit the story for military facts and information.
The story was a mess, giving his brother’s rank as “officer” when he was a Petty Officer Second Class and confusing VA and military doctors, among many other things. When the story was fixed, it was accurate and respectful. That has always been my goal in veterans’ stories.
I agree with Nathan Webster on all of his post. I advised reporters to ask for a DD-214 with everyone they interviewed for a military story, or at least look around for photos, memorabilia, etc., at a person’s house. I know I bore people to tears with my photos of my days in the Corps and VMA-513.
Misinformation in the paper concerned me so much that I let it be known that I was reachable all the time with any questions about the military, and that if I couldn’t answer a question or was not reachable, the sergeant major could help. One time I was off work for a few days and driving far away when my cellphone rang. It was a reporter, wanting to know if there was such a position as “Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps” because she had never heard of it. I was glad that she had reached out to me and happy to help her.
Webster is right that with the Internet, people with tall tales have a better outlet, but it’s easier for them to get caught. I stay on top of the latest trends in military fakery through online sources, and appreciate those who are upset at poor-quality news coverage and want reporters to get the story right.
And Webster is also right on with this: no one ever lies about having an ordinary job in the service.
July 6th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Mr. Safuto, ‘Jump Jets’ outta Yuma, right? Semper Fi, Bro!
I think I can speak for all of us when I say, thank you for your due diligence when reporting on military/Veteran’s affairs. Our beef is with reporters who take everything at face value and don’t bother asking questions. ANY questions! In another thread I posted that I have made a copy of my DD-214 and my “old school” ID card and now carry them with me because people are soon not going to trust anyone who claims to be a veteran. Isn’t that sad? I was a broke d1ck Amtracer who did nothing, of any renown, yet because of supply clerks claiming to be Recon with Navy Crosses and Admin Pogues claiming to be Green Berets with Distinguished Service Medals, I gotta carry around my bona fidies!? Sad, don’t ya think?
July 6th, 2012 at 9:48 pm
Reporters who are doing stories about veterans often are freelancers (I am one now, but I have worked on staff, too) with no past military service. I would like to point out that military fakers seldom admit to a reporter that they are faking, and even fabulists will merely claim that the military experience they are referencing on their resume is a “mistake” if they are called on it.
In journalism, we reporters take a lot of what we are told at face value because we don’t have the time to do detailed research. Also, it would be nice if the military’s personnel records section was faster at responding to requests. It can take six weeks to confirm that someone served and get a copy of records and a DD-214.
I tend to err on the side of trust when talking to veterans, but also try to draw them out about when and where they served. A number of Vietnam-era veterans have been caught because they claimed Vietnam service when they had none. The trouble is that they are good at lying, and good at lying to reporters.
Incidentally, I still carry my old ID card, shellback card and DD-214. Back in 2009, I interviewed for a job at a news website and it turned out the owner was a former Marine from my era. He hired me based on my journalism knowledge and didn’t even ask for proof of my Marine service, but after I started work I showed him my photos, DD-214 and old ID anyway.
The thing now is that reporters at small local papers may make it known that they are on the prowl for war stories, and there are plenty of people looking for sympathy and VA benefits, and reporters can be gullible. It’s up to editors and copy editors (the latter are being let go in record numbers now) to make sure these stories are accurate.
I remember that right after the Afghanistan invasion, the first military faker story came out about a month later, about a college student who claimed to be an Army sniper and had an M-4 in his dorm room. I just wish reporters would be more skeptical and more willing to learn how to confirm service.
By the way, I still occasionally have dreams of Yuma. I was in Gainesville, Fla., back in 2011 working for the paper there when there was an airshow. Four AV-8Bs from VMA-542 had flown down to do some bombing in the Ocala National Forest, and two of the planes developed problems so they landed in Gainesville and spent the night.
I thought they were part of the show, but they weren’t. I’m proud to say they stole the show. I got out just before the “B”s were introduced, but seeing those planes brought back a flood of memories, and I bored a couple of Marine pilots to death with my stories about Yuma and ’513 back in the early 1980s.
July 6th, 2012 at 10:32 pm
I made it to this before you lost me: “In journalism, we reporters take a lot of what we are told at face value because we don’t have the time to do detailed research.”
So it’s more important to get the story than it is to be accurate?
July 6th, 2012 at 11:01 pm
No. 78: “. . .the damage she caused . . .” —
Why CAUSE DAMAGE, in the first place ??
July 6th, 2012 at 11:04 pm
No. 79: “. . . yet because of supply clerks claiming to be Recon with Navy Crosses and Admin Pogues claiming to be Green Berets with Distinguished Service Medals, . . .” —
There are at least, a few NON-supply clerks and Admin Pogues, written up at this site — who claim what they don’t deserve.
I am sticking up for the NUMEROUS supply clerks and Admin Pogues .