Vets are vets. Period.
My war, the first war against Saddam Hussein, was probably the easiest war to have taken part in, but mostly because we’d spent fifteen years training for it. I remarked at the time that it was exactly like a Table VIII run at Graffenwoer without the trees. We didn’t have to kick doors in or any of that stuff that the folks in the recent war had to do, well, except that COB6 and his platoon briefly did some door-kicking in Iraq a few days before the ground war portion began. But all we had to do was drive and shoot the occasional Iraqi BTR-50, BMP or T55 which popped up like targets on the range.
But I write all of that to segue into this NBC article sent to us by one of the folks at The Duffel Blog about the dick-measuring some veterans are doing comparing their service in combat to others. Personally, I think the article was written to divide us, but I think it’s off-base.
It is, quite likely, a tradition that hearkens back to the Civil War or possibly the Revolutionary War, according to some ex-service members. But many post-9/11 veterans who have chatted with older veterans revealed the sentiment they’ve often heard carry the same note: “We just came home, put our heads down and got to work — without any whining.”
Buried, not so subtly, in that message is that the current crop is a tad less tough and lot more needy. Some of that cultural gap may have to do with how aging veterans were taught not to talk about combat stress whereas today’s military members are constantly urged to open up about any symptoms of anxiety they’re feeling. It’s a battle of Macho circa 1945 or 1970 versus Macho 2012.
I recognize that veterans of previous wars had it tougher than I did. I got to call my son on his birthday, that was probably not something previous war vets would have had the chance to do. But then, this generation emailed home often, however, I recognize that was more a function of the technology than the nature of war. In any case, folks were trying to kill us. I huddled with my troops in our Bradley during an Iraqi artillery barrage for a night. It wasn’t like sitting through an NVA mortar attack, or a Taliban rocket attack for days, but I share the feeling and experience with those who have.
Many of the casualties of my war were friendly fire, but they are no less casualties than anyone else in any other war. My battalion had the highest casualty rate of any other infantry unit in that war, but that’s because both sides were shooting at us since we led the whole rest of the Army into Iraq and then Kuwait.
After my war, I sought solace with those who shared my experiences. first with those with whom I served, and later, when our unit was broken up, in the books of Civil War veterans. That’s when I learned that many of our experiences are shared across generations. Despite the nature of our wars, and although my war could be measured in hours rather than years, much of what I experienced was experienced a hundred years before.
I’m pretty sure that Civil War veterans poked fun at the Spanish-American War veterans for their brief skirmishes which won the war in Cuba. But war is war.
I made a trip to the Yorktown battlefield when I was at school at Fort Monroe once. It amazed me that the whole US Army was crammed into an area the today a single infantry platoon could defend today. Huge siege cannons were pointed at the British lines a mere 25 meters away. The horror of all of that must have been great. I stood on Redoubts 9 and 10 that American Rangers had seized at night on October 14, 1781, and even two hundred years later they still looked imposing without a single gun pointed at the opposing lines.
I know the Vietnam veterans had trouble joining the American legion and VFW during their war because of the dick-measuring that went on between generations of veterans. But we can all understand how inappropriate that was. In fact much credit can be given to Vietnam veterans for the way the current crop of veterans have been treated at home. Because they wanted to insure that what happened to them wouldn’t happen to this generation. Large numbers of Vietnam veterans reached across the generations to offer a hand up, so this article is way off base by looking at a few incidents instead of looking at the entire picture.
We’re all veterans, we all answered the call when so many other Americans never even considered it. We all share that moment.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:00 am
Amen, amen, AMEN!
Sometimes even now I get sick of hearing the, “You ain’t/weren’t a grunt, WTF do you know?” line. I offer to trade experiences with them. I have yet to find a taker.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:08 am
Thanks Jonn.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:08 am
Here Here, Jonn! We all made our individual contributions and we all share a common bond and common burden. Well said, brother.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:09 am
I work with soldiers every day and as much as I hate to admit it, I kinda feel embarrassed admitting I was a Desert Storm vet. I know I shouldn’t but still I do.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:10 am
BS article, I have had Marines from the Pacific, the Chosin Few, and Vietnam grunts all thank me for my service. Ask how we do it in the heat or wearing all the gear. There is no pissing contest except in the minds of the liberals at NBC.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:13 am
I think you young guys have/had it much worse than I/we did in VN (and I was in the 82nd and 101st). Except for helo pilots, even lifers did one or 2 tours and that was it (in most cases). You folks have had back to back deployments for a decade. When you’re not deployed, you’re at NTC getting spun up for the next deployment. That’s tough and I salute you all.
Also, your ROE is/was much more bizarre than ours was. I know someone will wave the BS flag because in his AO in VN, it was just as bad…I’m speaking generally just like most/many of us did not have to deal with urban issues. I do envy your access to EMail rather than MARS, but you earned it being deployed so much.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:21 am
Well said Jonn!
And Welcome Home.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:36 am
I never really thought of it like that. I had met quite a few veterans before I joined the Army in ’07. They were docents at the museum I worked at. One, a ball-turret gunner named Wilbur would discuss his 30 some odd missions which, even though he flew and I have been doing the Infantry thing, I can relate to; 90% boredom and 10% fear.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:41 am
I believe that each generation had its challenges. This generation more than anything have to watch their step in war, because the media is ever watching and waiting to crucify them.
I also think the immediate access to family member via the internet and phone can also be detrimental. I am ashamed to say that I know many wives who forgot that their hubby was being shot at on a daily basis, and bitched to him about bills, kids etc.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:48 am
The changing paradigm of warfare for modern nations is a strange dichotomy. In Baghdad, we experienced moments of sheer terror, went off the FOB or COP daily to patrol neighborhoods where every resident wanted you dead, and where many worked toward that end.
But at the end of the day, or a couple of days….it’s back in your rack with internet and the DFAC. I had no doubt that I had it made compared to a lot of the guys in AFG.
Modern conveniences don’t mitigate the danger of combat…but the toughest of door kickers can still be humbled when compared to the guy who spent three months living in various holes on Guadalcanal.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:59 am
Very well done Jonn. I called my son on his birthday from Viet Nam during my second tour and my WWII uncle laughed about it, in a friendly way. I also went home from Desert Storm just in time to make my son’s 5th jump with him at Benning. Now he just returned from Afghasnistan and his 5th deployment. We all served when we could serve and none of it was easy. The liberals wouldn’t know about it because they haven’t served. Oh, except for John Kerry, ha!
November 25th, 2012 at 12:05 pm
There are some jerks from every war that seem to think their service was the “roughest ever”. For an example, see Wittgenfeld, Dallas. But, thankfully, they are a tiny minority.
Jonn is right. Vets of all conflicts have a shared bond. The threats and conditions were different for different conflicts – but that’s not the point. The point is that, whatever the threat, you served anyway and did your duty when called.
Anyone who’s actually disrespectful of another vet’s combat service (vice good-natured ribbing) because “I had it tougher” is only showing themselves to be an abject fool. For an example, see Wittgenfeld, Dallas.
November 25th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
Great post, Jonn.
The article is a fluff piece based on sound bites the author found to support his point of view. I could just as easily offer an experience at a recent VFW meeting where a new member who referred to himself as ‘only receiving the Korea Defense Service medal’ was warmly welcomed and respectfully corrected as to discounting his own service.
I think there are generational differences, but not unlike good natured ribbing between different services, or smack talk by grunts, tankers, and cannon cockers who struggle to attain the same sharp wit as Air Defense (but fail miserably).
November 25th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
If you took the “Oath’ honored it did what you were told went where you were told did what you were trained to do….. then thanks
and Welcome Home
November 25th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
I met an old vet standing next to a B-17 in Hill AFB’s aircraft museum; his name is Corbin Willis and he served as a crew member in WWII and Korea. He volunteers at the museum to give brief tours of the plane, and will relate his experiences in the war to anyone who wants to listen. He talked to my wife and I for about a half-hour, relating being shot down over Germany, bailing out right before the bomber broke up, being a POW for close to a year, only being able to eat rice and water when the camp was liberated, and coming home to find that everyone thought he was dead; his mother had held a funeral service for him in his home town, and his wife had remarried. He sorta winked and smiled and said “I served in Korea, too, but that’s another story.”
I shook his hand and thanked him for serving and taking the time to tell us about his experiences, but I was dumbfounded when he thanked me for my service. Truly a great American.
November 25th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Does anyone get a conspiracy vib from some of these articles? I mean MSNBC is firmly liberals and liberals get power by dividing groups. Doesn’t this article seem like they are trying to create division with veterans and each other.
November 25th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
I catch some good natured ribbing from my Older ‘Nam vet buddies (I was a 43 year old medic in OIF 08/09), mostly because of the cell phone and internet access along with Burger Kings on some of the FOB’s. I usually counter with “Oh yeah well you guys had weekend passes to Saigon to have hookers, Carling Black Label and weed. Wanna trade?” That usually ends it right there.
November 25th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
Well said, Jonn. I am a retired Army NCO and Persian Gulf vet and I agree, our war was not a bruiser. Still, when we were preparing to engage one of the world’s largest standing armies, full of combat veterans from their Iran conflict, it looked grim. I remember placing my Last Will and Testament, Life insurance info and Power of Attorney in my wife’s hand, wondering if I was going to return upright or in a bag. I remember stepping around dead Iraqis and thinking, that could have been me. I congratulate and salute all of our veterans.
November 25th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
@12 Hondo-Anyone who’s actually disrespectful of another vet’s combat service (vice good-natured ribbing) because “I had it tougher” is only showing themselves to be an abject fool.
Well said. Even the so-called “peacetime” service was tough by almost any measure. Training accidents, deployments, living conditions, etc., and never knowing if tomorrow would be the day someone would decide to start a shooting war.
I don’t care if you saw combat (any definition of it) or in what branch one served. If it was honorable service, that’s good enough for me.
November 25th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
And who better than Reickoff to help MSNBC perpetuate the ‘Veterans as victims’ mentality.
November 25th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
NHSparky-” Even the so-called “peacetime” service was tough by almost any measure. Training accidents, deployments, living conditions, etc.”
I remember seeing military death statistics from the early to mid 1980s where there were something like 2,000+ military deaths per year and almost nobody knows about it. That was when we were fielding a lot of new systems so that probably contributed to the dangers. VFW magazine did a story some time back about Cold War casualties leaving out the shooting war statistics and iirc there were over 20,000 deaths over a 40 year span. Risk management and an emphasis on safety have helped a lot with this, but the brutal truth is that military service carries with it certain dangers regardless of combat.
November 25th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
That article is such nonsense. I agree with melle1228 that this assclown is either trying to create a divide or just needed to write some kind of story. Not once. I repeat Not Once has an older vet ever tried to trivialize my service. In fact I’ve received phone numbers from vets spanning from WWII to present with the words “Don’t hold that shit in. It’ll eat you from the inside.”
That whole put your head down, push through, and don’t talk about it is the reason why my grandfather and great uncle went from the friendliest boys in the neighborhood before they went to Germany to hard drinking,surly, verbally and physically abusive assholes that they were. Hate to talk that way about dead relatives but that’s the truth. The grandfather in that story sounds like my great uncle. Just ate up with PTSD and so angry he can’t even empathize with a family member vet. Sad really.
I’ll say this, asides friendly rivalry, if I ever see another vet try to trivialize another vets service I’m going to climb so far up that ass they’re going to need an ear, nose, and throat specialist to get me out.
That’s the facts Jack.
November 25th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
As a Marine infantry vet (2001-2005) my experience was vastly different than the majority who apparently went to “war”. I can’t relate to most veterans precisely because of that. I don’t go around trying to discredit their experiences but there is a widening gap between people fighting wars and those not in our military.
First thing out of my mouth when I meet a veteran is asking them what their MOS was. There are is a very large percentage of the U.S. military today that isn’t very military and if they get upset with those factual observations to hell with them.
November 25th, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Just as we can’t trust the media today, we couldn’t during the Vietnam War either. It was due largely to mainstream, liberal media sensationalizing and gross exaggeration that far too many of the WWII vets looked on us as a bunch of whiny, dope-smoking baby killers. Like many Vietnam vets, I was on the receiving end of some of that misplaced contempt from a generation of veterans whom I had always revered. For that reason I avoided the American Legion and the VFW for many years. That bitter lesson also taught me the need for all veterans to be supportive of future generations of young warriors.
Some food for thought: in researching my father-in-law’s WWII service with the 65th Infantry Division prior to taking him to Washington to see his newly constructed WWII Memorial, I was surprised to learn that his total tour in that war was less than a year, which was not atypical for troops serving in the European Theater. Remember, American ground troops entered Europe on June 6th, 1944 and thereafter; and the fall of Berlin came less than a year later. Many of them spent less time in Europe than a single Vietnam tour.
As CI mentioned above, many of the ground troops in the Pacific spent far more time in combat, from the summer of 1942 until the summer of 1945. That was also true of our air and naval forces in both theaters of war who were engaged with the enemy longer than our ground forces.
Jonn is absolutely right that we are all veterans and should accord each other respect, although I confess to gagging at that prospect as regards a self-serving snake like John Kerry.
November 25th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Guys like sKerry and Murffa remove themselves from the brotherhood of vets by acting outrageously, usually more than once. While most vets are more than due our collective respect just for showing up, getting the training to fight and standing by even if they are not needed on the front lines of combat, there will always be a few who dishonor themselves and all of us by their actions. But until they do something which crosses that line, I will continue to respect every vet from every conflict and the times in between no matter their involvement.
All give some and some give all.
November 25th, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Thanks for the post. My dad joined the Army in 1960, before he could be drafted, and served 4 years in Japan. Although he never saw any action, he was still away from home, training every day, living is less than luxurious accommodations (the poorest in today’s US live better than we did). I was born during a typhoon and Mom has several stories about earthquakes. Hokkaido wasn’t some tropical paradise either, it was cold, snowy, and muddy.
Dad has never considered himself a vet until recently. Just a couple of weeks ago, the American Legion contacted him and asked him to join. I don’t think he cares much about the recognition, but they do have benefits that my parents can use.
It’s like you said about the posers who actually have military service but claim much more. ALL service is honorable, even if you couldn’t be the SOF hero on the front lines. My kids are experiencing that themselves, since they’re Air National Guard. The full-time guys look down on them constantly, but Guard deploys just like everyone else and for far more than the 2 week summer training.
I thank all of you for giving of yourselves to protect the rest of us.
November 25th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
Is the writer of this article a Veteran? If not, maybe he should not write about things he knows nothing about.
November 25th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
AJ: it’s unclear if Bill Briggs is a vet. His LinkedIn profile doesn’t mention military service. However, there is a 3 year gap between his finishing college in 1985 and beginning work as a writer for the Denver Post in 1988. He could have served then.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/bill-briggs/3/919/130
I’m guessing the answer is no, but it’s possible he did serve. However, if he did serve he’s obviously not proud enough of his service to make the fact that he’s a vet public.
November 25th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Vets are NOT the same as other vets. It is how the vet carries him or herself with dignity, respect for others who’ve earned it, and common courtesy are attributes we’ve come to expect from vets. But don’t dismiss the differences that meant the world to us just to kick a newsie in the balls.
Because vets are NOT the same as other vets. There are combat vets. There are those who’ve earned Purple Hearts, and others who’ve been recognized with the Medal of Honor. There are non-combat vets with their EIB and MSM with oak-leaf clusters. I don’t wear the MOH, PH, EIB, or master-blaster wings.
One of the CSM I served with in Afghanistan (see how I separated myself from Jonn and others?) had a Screaming Eagle combat patch. I asked him where he got, assuming he was in Desert Storm, or maybe OIF. Nope – he responded with “A Shau Valley.”
We are 5 uniformed services, and a USO. We are citizens, and legal immigrants and illegals hoping for a shortcut to citizenship. We’re paratroopers, legs, pilots and groundhogs. Some folks even tool about in ships that sink.
I will continue to poke fun at the Infantry, those Queens of Battle. And pilots who have it rough developing arthritis in their necks with their ginormous pro-pay paychecks.
Because vets are NOT the same as other vets. Honor the differences because they were necessary to the defence of our great Nation, just as we honor the commonality of service.
November 25th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Well, DaveO, thanks so much for missing the entire point of Jonn’s article, assuming that I got it at all. And thank you so very much for contributing to the problem.
It’s called maturity, DaveO. Get you some before you start telling the grown-ups around here how we are not the same. Gee, ya think??
Just so ya know, my service was honorable with a few brief moments here and there of something almost like distinction. None of it was in combat, but my service in theater during Desert Storm et al was pretty important to those forward of me. As were the clowns processing paperwork CONUS so that we all got paid for what we did wherever we were. I knew a bunch of frustrated folks at Dover who were anxious to cross the pond but provided everything from bullets to US mail to everyone in theater. Were they the same? No one ever said that they were, but I would hate to have tried to live for over 6 months in the sand box without what they were sending us.
But as a base line, every vet is important. Every vet is worthy of respect, until they prove otherwise. Do we especially honor those who went above and beyond? Of course. Why would you act as though any of us would do otherwise, DaveO?
Tell you what, DaveO, the next time you deploy, how’s about you try carrying everything you will need for a year without resupply from those folks behind you who are not worthy to be called vets, huh? And do it for nothing because there also would not be any payroll clerks around. And you can forget about any air support from those pilots. How’s that work for you?
Yeah, most of us already knew that we are not the same. Most of us do not require measuring devices to prove it. Doesn’t mean I don’t thank you for your service even as you are (apparently) looking down your nose at mine. I even respect your service, though that may be just a tiny bit tarnished because of your attitude.
Whatever.
November 25th, 2012 at 8:15 pm
@29DaveO: Thanks for making me feel old. I went into the AuShau in the early days and I can’t imagine hyauling my heavy drop butt around Afghan after all these years and pounds. That CSM is a stud.
November 25th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
There are is a very large percentage of the U.S. military today that isn’t very military and if they get upset with those factual observations to hell with them.
Thanks for making the point I made in post 1.
Seems to me we all took the same enlistment/commissioning oath. Is there one special for 11/18 series or 03XX MOS? Or is yours not as valid as, say, a 5326 NEC (that’s a SEAL, in case you weren’t aware.)
Military is about SERVING, son. Doesn’t matter if you’re carrying beans or bullets, flying a B-1 or diving a bilge. But you keep thinking you’re better than everyone else you served with, son. Maybe someday even you might begin to believe it if you tell yourself that story enough.
November 25th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
“Seems to me we all took the same enlistment/commissioning oath.”
Yes sir we did, but if I’m being totally honest there are a goodly number of people who mouth the words with no feeling for the soul of the work they are doing or are going to be expected to do.
And yes, the military is about serving, but if all you do during your enlistment is serve yourself, with nothing but disdain in your heart for the spirit of the service you’re ultimately offering, it’s no kind of service anyone should tip a hat to regardless of how well you performed.
And just so you understand, I do NOT think that my 20+ years, including my deployment, stacks up to the service of some of our brethren in uniform, I specifically DON’T think I’m better than everyone else when I agree with the statement;
“There are is a very large percentage of the U.S. military today that isn’t very military and if they get upset with those factual observations to hell with them.”
My biggest gripe with that statement is the grammar.
I just chose to face some realities that you apparently aren’t prepared to face.
November 25th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
Jonn makes a valid point, and DaveO adds to it. It was a Viet Nam Veteran that welcomed and mentored me into the VFW, where Squids, Zoomies, Jarheads, Grunts, Paratroopers, Tunnelrats, Rangers, Paperpushers, Recruiters, & a man who chased down deserters around the world, welcomed me, and proudly told me stories of their part of the pie. We are different in that aspect, as DaveO points out.
We are the same as Jonn points out. We are Combat Veterans, or peacetime Veterans, or Veterans during periods of War. Our Experiences are different, but Veterans have experienced the realities of the World, in a way that cannot be understood by decades of reading books.
And when we went to Desert Storm, we looked to the Viet Nam Veterans still in uniform, while when we went to Iraq and Afghanistan the young Troops looked to us, and when we go to Iran, or NoRK, or China, or whereever the next war is, they will look to the last remaining Veterans of the Current Conflicts.
But Veterans of today and Veterans of WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, or Desert Storm need not tell or hear a single war story, to feel the brotherhood and camaraderie, and its benefits. Merely sitting at a table in the VFW, and watching Football, NASCAR, or Basketball, with Brothers, is a return home, to a Family that understands, without a word.
November 25th, 2012 at 9:14 pm
Jonn. Yes We are. Well said. Beer up!
November 25th, 2012 at 9:20 pm
There’s a Patton quote that I cannot now find that makes the point, in Patton style, how every single Service member plays a key role, regardless of MOS.
DaveO: my entry re the CSM was one of awe.
November 25th, 2012 at 9:47 pm
My biggest problem when I got out was I was afraid of what other Vets from my generation and past generations would say about my service:
“Oh, you served in a Wing support unit? in a paper pushing function? In Al Taqaddum? Way to be a pussy”
I didn’t consider myself a Vet, and I didn’t think I deserved or earned any of the benefits. Especially not being thanked by civillians for my service. There are other’s out there that had it rougher and sacrificed more. I didn’t consider myself a Vet. I wasn’t ashamed of my service, I just didn’t think I measured up to other Vets…I was afraid.
Them I went to school in Vermont and met some OIF/OEF Vets my age. They brought me to the VFW in downtown Burlington, hooked me up with the Veteran’s student organization at the college. Through the interaction with young and old Vets, I learned one thing: No one gave a shit what my MOS was or whether or not I saw combat or not. No one excluded another Vet from events or conversations or hangouts because they didn’t take fire or didn’t go outside the wire. Sure, there are some good natured “POG” jokes thrown in there, but it was never anything malicious or meant to let you know your place within the group (or outside the group). What mattered was that you served, put in your time, and served honorably. What matters is you are willing to give a hand, an ear, your time, to your fellow Vets. Those people did not let me forget that. And 99.9% of Vets I’ve met since then have been the same exact way.
I work at a VA hospital right now. On a daily basis I deal with disabled Vets from all eras. One of the highlights of my week is to be able to hear stories from every generation of Veterans. Guys who served with Patton; stormed Normandy; were in Hue; Chosin; Okinawa; fucked around in Germany during the Cold War; got wet in Baghdad, Majah or Ramadi; or were just stationed stateside during peacetime. All the stories are special to me as they are to the Veteran. After almost every conversation when they find out I was in the Corps and pushed paper, they thank me for my service. “We all had a job to do…”
November 25th, 2012 at 10:37 pm
I find it curious that Lilyea would write something like this especially when he spends alot of his time insulting other veterans and their service because he disagrees with them politically..
I have heard Lilyea insult pogs and many other veterans more than anybody on this board except for maybe NHSparky who is just a Lilyea lacky.. But good job Lilyea you pointed out your hypocrisy better than any of us could.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:09 pm
I liked this article, it’s well put together and I concur with it. I got the privilege to serve as a ground-pounder in the Army from 02-06 with the 3ID. I remember when I was 1st in and had my 1st time on R&R and I came across this older guy in his 40′s who was bashing those of us who were over in Iraq fighting (in 2003). I don’t know if he was a vet or not but his comments were something like we were a bunch of babies who didn’t know what real war/combat service was like the V.N. vet’s did. I took exception to that and got in his face. I set him right in the end even though he didn’t like it. My point I suppose is that there are a select few out here from the past generations who served in Vietnam, Korea or the Gulf War who disparage the newer crop of OIF/OEF veteran’s since 2001. Frankly, even though I was a Infantryman and I think it’s the toughest job in the Army, I still don’t not respect another veteran regardless if they pushed paper or were an MP or whatever. I have met very few non-vet’s and vet’s who will talk down on us. I think the MSNBC article as others have stated was created to stir divisions amongst us which isn’t going to happen I hope. I do think that the veteran’s that have been serving overseas since 2001 have had the toughest time in the military in along time due to the repeated deployments, lengths of deployment, etc. Sometimes out of a joking spirit I make fun of the newer crop of guys who are serving overseas because the FOB’s have so many goodies on them vs. back when we were over there in 2003-2005. Plus when I was 1st in there wasn’t really much if any social networking. There wasn’t Facebook or Youtube or any of the stuff that guys/gals get to use today to talk to family while overseas. It doesn’t mean much I suppose except that technology has allowed vet’s to keep in touch with friends/family like no other time in our past wars. Thanks to all who have served and God bless them all.
November 25th, 2012 at 11:32 pm
@ The Dude … Your opinion is respected.
However, if you don’t like the content of the site and the Vets who hang out here, then perhaps you may want to visit a more pleasant blog that appeals to your taste … try this one:
kissmyroyalirishass.org
November 25th, 2012 at 11:42 pm
All bullshit aside, an honorably discharged veteran IS a VETERAN! War time, peace time, we all served. Anything else said is pure bullshit. President Carter and President Reagan decided going to war in the late ’70s was not a good idea. Does that diminish my service? I was trained, which the Marine Corps is well know for, and ready to go if required. Does that make me less of a veteran? I used the GI Bill to get through college, a veteran’s benefit. I used the GI Bill to buy my house, a veteran’s benefit. I used a program through the VA to get my Masters, another veteran’s benefit. I’m not a veteran?
November 25th, 2012 at 11:44 pm
OWB, if that’s really you, you missed a part.
“…There are non-combat vets with their EIB and MSM with oak-leaf clusters. I don’t wear the MOH, PH, EIB, or master-blaster wings… Because vets are NOT the same as other vets. Honor the differences because they were necessary to the defence of our great Nation, just as we honor the commonality of service.”
I even understood what Jonn was saying (tis the season of miracles). I just took exception to it. I would never think of going to Parris Island School for Wayward Lads and telling young marines fresh out of the Crucible that really, they are no different than Seamen Recruits at Great Mistakes.
Given how much money the military spends on selling their differences, then why should we expect newsies, who are conditioned to seek out and promote differences know any better? It’s a tough question. It requires 2 neurons firing in sequence. Things we take for granted like Honor, service for service’s sake, oaths, and safety belts are lost on newsies and ordinary citizens.
OWB, the services are different because they fulfill a specific role. We could be the same as Canadian Forces with a common Combat Service Support, Administration, and medical services. It even makes sense from a cost perspective.
Now for an Army History Lesson: It was NORMAL to have had a career going from 1975 to 2005 without ANY combat service. Back then we called those folks “soldiers” and they were discriminated against as a matter of policy. They were given such things as the Expert Infantry Badge to further separate the non-combat soldiers.
General Carl Vuono, as the Chief of Staff, Army (CSA), set the Order of Precedence for Army Commands as follows:
1. Combat trumps non-combat, regardless of role or accomplishment in combat.
2. Line units before HQ units (except as 2d commands – BDE and DIV HQ companies) before service units. So: Batteries A, B, C before HHB/HSB before Service Battery.
3. Combat Arms before Combat Support before Combat Service Support. Napoleon once remarked, correctly as usual, that amateurs study tactics, but professionals study logistics.
In the USAF, the Fighter Community is Boss. Not the crews of the Big Ugly Fellows, or the cargo planes.
SecDef Rumsfeld, being a former Naval Aviator, favored Naval Aviators. A look at the FOGO ranks before and after Rummie shows a vast increase in the percentage of Naval Aviators wearing stars.
Rummie also favored Special Forces, who by their training, aren’t necessarily the best at large, traditional formations. His call though. Leon Panetta may have changed that policy. That would require a functioning strategy and even a concern for the military, but Leon wasn’t hired to lead our military.
So how is your ordinary marxist newsie supposed to know there is absolutely zero differences – ‘a vet is a vet’ – when as a matter of law and official policy, there are many differences, even discrimination?
#36 SJ: the CSM is awesome. He’s retired now. He was one of a number of NCO and officers we had who served in Astan who were over the age of 50. Average age of the teams was 45.
November 26th, 2012 at 12:01 am
Thank you for broaching this subject. It is highly pertinent in my experiences as a Veteran.
I am a Vietnam Era Vet that went to Alaska and fought the cold war… And I lost it too. It is still cold up there…
I was in right at the tail end of Vietnam and got all the bennie’s but didn’t have to go. I was in from 74-77 and served as a grunt for my entire enlistment. My last 9 months were as a Skiing and mountaineering instructor at Huckleberry Creek Mountain training camp in Mt. Rainier National Park just outside Greenwater WA.
That was the worst time in the last century to be in the service. Everybody hated us and I got spit on in airports more than once. I was actually ashamed to be a Veteran for many years. I remember when they came down with the order that we had to wear civilian clothes during commercial travel because too many service people were getting verbally abused and beat up.
As it stands today, I am proud to be a Veteran and know that it was the men and women that served in Desert Storm 1 that made it possible for many of us to stand proud to be Veteran’s.
I respect all of us that served no matter what we did. We did our jobs, and I am proud to be a part of that brotherhood.
It is important to hang together against all assaults against any and all Veteran’s or we will surely hang separately…
Thanks
Thunder
November 26th, 2012 at 12:25 am
@42 Dave O, there is NO difference between a Marine who graduates MCRD and a sailor who graduates Great Lakes. BOTH are serving ready to go fight for our country. Dave O, are you a Marine? Is it OK that I say you’re not a vet because you didn’t endure the13 weeks of hell called Marie RecruitTraining in the ’70s? Army, Navy , Air Force or Marines, if you served, you’re a vet. Anything else is stupid.
November 26th, 2012 at 1:07 am
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight: I didn’t pick up a gun and go hunting for Charlie in the tunnels; I didn’t spend time a An Loc or Quang Tri dodging bullets; I wasn’t offloading stuff from a Herc that took off from Bien Hoa on a run to Khe Sanh; I was in DC at the Naval Photographic Center printing still phots in the B&W print lab; working in the color lab; and cutting film in the CHINFO Liaison MOPIC office. I was up at Great Lakes cranking out 10 slide programs a week for the Service Schools Command. But that doesn’t make me a vet.
That’s what you’re saying, huh, DaveO?
I’ll remember that, so that the next time I see you I can tell you where you can stick it and for how long.
November 26th, 2012 at 6:46 am
Dude…prima facie evidence of why you’ve always been, will always be a shitbag. Again, way to make my point.
November 26th, 2012 at 7:38 am
I do not see that DaveO and Jonn are making mutually exclusive arguments. Rather, they are making two different points entirely.
Jonn’s point is that veterans are bound together by service to this nation. When, where, or how one served aren’t all that important; there are enough similarities throughout the years. Anyone who tries to pull the “we had it rougher in my day, so you’re not a REAL vet worthy of respect” is talking out of their 4th point of contact. And yes – I’m talking about you, Wittgenfeld.
DaveO’s point is that the nature of each veteran’s service is different. Each service is trained differently; each experiences different threats; each serves differently. So even within the veteran’s community, there are differences. In the grand scheme of things, I personally put those differences in the “so what” category, but YMMV. DaveO appears to consider those differences much more significant than I do. And, unfortunately, so do tools who engage in cross-generational dong-comparison contests regarding who had the “tougher time”.
Here’s my take. First: if you served honorably, that’s what counts. Given the inherently risky nature of military service, someone or something was trying to kill damn near everyone who served at one time or another – be it the sea, a sleep-deprived vehicle driver during a field training exercise, a cantankerous aircraft, the weather, an enemy shooting at you, or any one of a thousand other risks faced by those in uniform. You signed on the dotted line, pledging all. Where and when you served, or what you did, was generally not up to you; that was dependent on the needs of your service at the time.
Second: while those who served personally in combat deserve respect, those who didn’t get shot at also deserve respect. Yes, being on the ground and personally engaging the enemy is the “tip of the spear”, and in the final analysis is what it’s all about. But you don’t fight well, or for very long, without logistical and/or other support. It takes people to provide that necessary support. And when you don’t get sufficient support – or when that support goes bad or gets things wrong – seriously bad things often happen.
November 26th, 2012 at 8:51 am
The only thing I ever grew tired of hearing, was the “Greatest generation” chatter of the local WWII vets when my oldest brother and his friends would return home on leave from RVN for whatever amount of precious leave time that lean, mean Mother Green granted them.
As for me, I don’t care if you painted ship hulls, laid carpet in dayrooms, welded two pieces of flat metal together, mopped floors, hung pictures, cooked chow, applied “Hello Kitty” bandages, mowed the lawn at HQ, wrenched on cars, trucks, tanks or aircraft as long as it was honorable service.
November 26th, 2012 at 8:56 am
I guess I am lucky
My father and I are vets, Though of the same “Generation” of vets
He is OIF
Im OEF
But in bad days in Afghanstain I always was able to say “Dad did it so can I”
Then came my recent “Jumpyness” (Docs wanna call it PTSD but I dont feel ive earned that) he told me he does it too, and that it get easier to deal with
so once again “Dad did it, So Can I”
Now we talk, exchanging stories, and brought us together in a way that I think only veterans could do. And very soon Ill be back, working with him at the VFW.
And I couldnt be happier
Soon Ill be leading the next generation of vets into whatever needs done… it might be a war it might be peace but I glad im going to be able to impart wisdom on the next Generation.
November 26th, 2012 at 9:24 am
Thank you very much Joe–says it all.
What we as veterans, regardless of MOS/NEC, service, etc., can do is serve as a good example to those who follow. THAT is what makes us honorable. That is what makes our service “military” in all respects.
November 26th, 2012 at 10:18 am
@47: Yes, exactly. There is a difference between saying “all service is honorable, no matter when you served or what you did” and “all veterans are the same.” I think some here assumed that Jonn was trying to say the latter when in fact it’s apparent he was saying the former.
Also, remember that conflict = news, and a reporter knows that if he can construct an imaginary conflict or inflate and minor conflict into something more sinister, it’s more likely to get him published (see also: Hollywood, which loves to do the same thing with regard to many topics – take a small, minor disagreement and spin it into something huge for purposes of “drama.”)
Finally, those who were at Fort Bragg in the mid to late 1990′s may remember a local cartoonist, who was also an active duty soldier, named Mark Baker, who wrote a brilliant comic strip called “Private Murphy’s Law.” For a while there were even cards in the PX with Private Murphy cartoons on them. I had the honor of serving with Mark (believe it or not, he was an MI guy) and I remember when he started doing his cartoons during Operation Uphold Democracy in Haiti in 1994-95.
Anyway, there was a Private Murphy’s Law cartoon that was perfect, I don’t think I can find it on the internet, but it consisted of a bunch of veterans sitting around a bar comparing how tough they had it. The first guy says “ah, you young guys have it easy, riding around in helicopters or armored vehicles. In my day, the only transportation we had was our boots!
So then the second one says “Ha! Back in my day, we didn’t even have boots, we had to march through the snow and over the rocks in our bare feet!
And then the third guy exclaims “WHAT? You had FEET?“
November 26th, 2012 at 10:30 am
I read the article that prompted this topic and I did not find it to be unifying but divisive. And when someone tries that game, the best response is, “Screw you. We are all Veterans, whatever our branch, job, or assignment.” Among ourselves, without non-Veterans present, the picture is as other have well described. I don’t think this matter is anymore difficult or meaningful than that.
November 26th, 2012 at 11:19 am
I think what Dave O is saying is people should respect others service which generally doesn’t occur on here especially when they have a different political view point..
If you’re somebody like NHSparky and Old Trooper who have never seen a second of combat you shouldn’t be speaking about it like you’re some kind of expert and always calling for it the second some controversey develops overseas..
Well said Dave O.
November 26th, 2012 at 11:27 am
@1: The fact of the matter is You Ain’t Grunt*, You Ain’t Shit.
Sorry if you don’t like it, butthorn, but that’s the breaks.
*unless you’re a medic serving with grunts, or any type of SF.
November 26th, 2012 at 12:03 pm
And the circular firing squad continues operation as per usual…
So said Lt. Dyke…..
Or somebody like him…..
Take it easy guys, we are all on the same page here and are all fighting our own battles.
I have been working with homeless and addicted Veterans for over 20 years and not one of them is more concerned with my MOS than how we can work together to get them and keep them sober.
We have bigger fish to fry gentlemen… (And I use the word Gentlemen loosely so as not to offend all of us enlisted…)
Have a great week guys. I love TAH and read it at least once a day !!!
Thanks, Thunder
November 26th, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Our service is different, but that is what makes our Military stronger. A door kicker can’t do his job without the ammunition handler getting that grunt ammo. Likewise Civil Affairs can’t do their job unless they got the trigger pullers pulling security. Just because somebody didn’t have the “sexy” jobs don’t mean their service is any less honorable. Last time I checked we all wear the same uniform of our branch.
November 26th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
@56, I will talk some good hearted smack with other MOS’s and branches, but that post has to be one of the most idiotic statements I have seen in a long time.
Twist/11B40/19 years service/OIF veteran.
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 pm
Dude–of which VFW Post are you a member?
Thanks for playing. So really, you don’t want to be calling someone’s service out. You especially. Again, you’re already in the Wittgenfeld category of douchiness. Not a worthy goal to which you want to aspire, trust me.
November 26th, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Twist–confused–calling out your own post or just fat-fingered the keys? I know those scars on your knuckles make numbers hard to punch once you recognize them…(I keed, I keed!!!)
November 26th, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Yep, my fingers are fat from all the knuckle dragging I’ve done throughout my carrer.:)
I was replying to #54
November 26th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Not currently a VFW member at the minute but I have been a member of post 335 and 2140..
Just because you’re an auxillary member there doesn’t mean anything.. Do you have a Combat Action Ribbon? John Kerry does and you insult his service all the time..
November 26th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Nope, no CAR. SSBN Deterrent Patrol and Expeditionary Medal.
Trust me, if we’d ever been shot at while I was on either one of my boats it’s because someone fucked up very, very badly.
And the whole world would have known it. They call us the “Silent Service” for a reason, Dude.
November 26th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
“The Dude”: best I can tell from looking over VFW’s eligibility criteria, pretty much all that’s required is documentation that you qualified for one of the following:
(1) a combat-specific badge/ribbon/medal (CAR/CAB/CIB/CMB/CAM)
(2) a campaign/expeditionary medal
(3) receipt of either hostile fire or imminent danger pay
(4) SSBN deterrent patrol badge
Plus probably one or more items I missed.
http://www.vfw.org/uploadedFiles/VFWorg/Join/sept2012%20ElgibilityFolder2.pdf
Getting shot at isn’t a requirement.
November 26th, 2012 at 1:20 pm
well congrats Sparky you made the team.. The only point I was trying to make is that this article is curious coming from a bunch of people who regularly insult and question other veterans combat records just because of their politics so I am not really buying Lilyea and others attempt for a kumbaya moment because this time next week you guys will be bashing some veterans organization because they supported the presidednt in some capacity..
November 26th, 2012 at 1:24 pm
No Dude, not just because of their politics. The problem I have with Kerry and the late Murtha is the same problem I have with former Rep. Cunningham–they took otherwise honorable service and pissed all over their brothers/sisters with their actions of either corruption, lying, or just general d-bagness.
See how that works, Dude? I’m not afraid to call out those on my side of the political aisle if it makes the group look bad. OTOH, Democrats take their criminals and make them their leaders.
November 26th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
And as far as IAVA/Vote Vets/et al go, again, you’ll find that my issue with them is in fact because they’re not honest about who/what they are, and never have been.
This is why I’m a member of the VFW and AmLegion, and pretty much nobody else.
November 26th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
I’m in the VFW and I never was shot at! (In the military, that is.) Nor was I a “knuckle dragger,” if I correctly interpret the meaning of the term. Neither makes me any better or worse than anyone else who served honorably. If you showed up and did the job, you are AOK by me. Well, until you insult the honorable service of others.
But, there are always some who derive their self-worth only in comparison to others. Kind of what the idiots who play the divide and conquer game are counting on.
November 26th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
I love how these assclowns go after IAVA, which happens to be a four star charity according to Charity Navigator, while promoting Soldier’s Angels which is a piss poor one star POS, and allegedly is nothing more than some nepotistic slush fund.
Hey butthorn, come talk to me about silent service once you’ve walked 10 klicks maintaining absolute noise and light discipline to hit Mahmood’s house at 0330.
November 26th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
@OWB – I believe last time I checked it depended on your dates of service as well. Being a stateside paperpusher during Vietnam makes you eligible;other than specific service sites like Panama, service during the ’80s is mostly ineligible. (Not to mention that anyone post-draft was a volunteer, and most one-termers during VN and earlier had to be dragged in kicking and screaming.)
November 26th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
David: I think you may be confusing the American Legion’s and VFW’s membership criteria. The American Legion bases eligibility on having served on active duty during defined periods:
http://www.legion.org/join
In contrast, the VFW requires that one qualify for receipt of a qualifying badge/campaign/expeditionary medal, or for receipt of hostile fire/imminent danger pay, to be eligible for VFW membership. (See link in comment 63.)
November 26th, 2012 at 2:43 pm
i was a remf in vietnam, 69-70. the only ribbons i have are the ones you get for showing up. i am not a combat vet, but i have been mortared a few times. it’s not the same as a real grunt, by any stretch of the imagination. that being said, i did the job i was assigned the best i could, got my honorable and got out when my tour was up. grunts back then rode us remfs hard, and some still do to this day, over 40 years later. i have zero use for media folks due to the way they treated us back then, but i still wish my own guys from 40 years ago would just let it go. i’ve never tried to steal your well earned honor and awards, and by the way, when i tried to join the vfw, i was turned down flat. i was still a canadian citizen then, and they only admitted americans. i have my citizenship now, but i will never join a group like that. as the old joke goes among many vietnam vets ” we were winning when i left “.
November 26th, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Oh yeah, when I was deployed we had to walk 20 miles, uphill, both ways, with no boots, and in knee deep snow on missions.
November 26th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
Twist–YOU HAD FEET???
November 26th, 2012 at 3:06 pm
And yeah, Mike–I’ll go after any VSO who leans politically to one side or the other who claims not to be such. Look at their BS “report card” and recommendations for a group that claims to be non-partisan.
http://www.shieldofachilles.net/2010/10/iavas-very-partisan-jump-into-poltics.html
It’s been pointed out here as well, Mike. I do the same to Vets for Freedom when they claim to be non-partisan.
If IAVA/Reickhoff said, “Fuck it, we’re left-leaning, so what?” I’d have no problem with it. The fact that they do and claim otherwise (mostly to keep their 501(c)3 status) is where my ass gets chapped.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:10 pm
Oh, and in case you were wondering:
http://media.iava.org.s3.amazonaws.com/IAVA%202011%20Audited%20Financial%20Statements.pdf
November 26th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Dude, Iron Mike….maybe you can form your own assholes club. Maybe somewhere else. The sad thing is, I think you believe your own BS. By your definition at various points in my 23 years I was either a hero or zero by your standards. Funny, I thought all of those very different jobs as honorable service. If you served, you’re a veteran. That is a fairly simple concept that apparently 90%+ of the folks posting here seem to understand. You both have issues that apparently involve low self-esteem. Related behaviors include belittling others, inflated self-importance, and general douchieness. Your lack of respect for others’ service is just a reflection of your own character, or lack thereof. As for calling Jonn out, it is clear that you either don’t read this blog regularly or have some other agenda. He is clearly more concerned with those who falsely claim service than degrading other’s honorable service. I’d say come meet me face-to-face but I doubt you’re willing to come to Iraq.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:15 pm
I never felt my service was worthy of discussion, I did not take any benefits and paid for my own education and financed my home with a regular non-VA mortgage. Because I never served in any conflict, and served only a single enlistment it never occurs to me to consider myself as anything other than a guy who served his nation honorably for a brief time but is not necessarily a veteran as I have no 20 year military career or hostile fire experiences.
Those of you that put in the time, or endured time in hostile environments have that right to be called veteran and to share that with each other, infighting over whose service was “better” or more important seems counterproductive at best. I think keeping the dialogue defined on your terms as Jonn does in this article serves all of you far better than letting some jack4ss reporter define it for you.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
#77- You’re wrong. You are a veteran, like it or not. Thanks for serving.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:24 pm
#77, it wasn’t your choice to not ever be in a conflict or a war. But you raised your hand and did your time and WOULD have went if called upon. That is what being a veteran is all about. Be proud of it. Just because there are people who have done a little more than you ever did, does not discredit your own service. My dad served both the AF and the Army in the 80s and never “did” anything, but I’m proud of him and his service.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
@77, I agree with Elric. You did something that 99% of your population cannot/will not do. This grunt knows you are a veteran that deserves the same respect for your service that the rest of us recieve regardless of MOS or time of service. Thank you for your service.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
@78: What he said. If you raised your right hand and served, you are a veteran and ought to be proud of your service whether you kicked in doors in the Helmand Province or stacked crates of C-rats at Fort Dix in the 1950′s.
As long as you aren’t claiming honors to which you aren’t entitled, I see nothing wrong with stating the plain fact that you are a “veteran” in both the legal sense (as in, entitled to certain benefits that are reserved for veterans) as well as in a colloquial sense (that we consider people to be “veterans” if they have served in the armed forces, whether the participated in combat or not.)
I write occasionally for another blog and the blog owner (a life long civilian) once referred to me as a “combat veteran.” I immediately emailed him and corrected him, as I never actually participated in any “combat” in any direct sense (we took a little small-arms fire in Haiti in 1994 and I think someone fired a rocket at our base in Afghanistan in 2003, but that’s it as far as exposure to hostile fire and I’ve never fired a shot in anger.)
I do refer to myself as a “War veteran” since I served in both the OIF and OEF theaters of operations and wore a right-sleeve patch on my BDU jacket until I retired in 2005.
But these differences are insignificant compared to the difference between those who raised their right and and served and those who didn’t.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:33 pm
What the frig is going on here? I served 32 years and have been a retired Vet just more than one year. Never in my wildest dreams would I ever compare one’s honorable service with another. Each warrior, branch, time, and circumstance add to the collective greatness of our military. To subtract any of the aforementioned or attempt to diminish the contributions of any would only devalue our great military.
BLUF: Vets are Vets. Period!
BTW, I kinda sorta respect some of, but not all of, the opinions shared above, in one way or another, on alternate third Tuesdays of odd months that experience irregular high tides associated with global warming.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
@54
“The fact of the matter is You Ain’t Grunt*, You Ain’t Shit.”
LOL. Just plain LOL.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Hondo – essentially you confirmed what I said – note that even American Legion excludes active service 75-82. Not knocking either organization, was responding (and actually the post I referred to specifically cited the VFW.) As a peacetime Euro-remf who never had anything more threatening than a nuke aimed at him, I understand. I might have, as Jonn says, “signed the check”… but no one (other than some strassenbahn drivers) ever seriously tried to cash it.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
#83 Hopefully you don’t think all of us grunts feel that way. We may talk smack, sure, but we realize that support units are doing just that…supporting us. I’d be pissed if I didn’t get my pay on time, didn’t get my food on time, didn’t get my water or ammo on time, and didn’t have that close air support in time when needed…
…thanks to all the non-Infantry types out there.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
@85
Naw. I don’t think that. I’m just amused by the few who do.
And as an IT professional, I coined the phrase “You can’t have shit without IT”.
November 26th, 2012 at 3:59 pm
I look at it this way–in a lot of Navy NEC’s we get to play up front and support type roles over the course of a career–case in point being on two boats and a tender. Most of the repair/support jobs are filled by guys in between boat tours.
Would that all the branches had that kind of flexibility or could rotate people between just to give everyone a greater appreciation for what the “other guy” does. Sure cuts down on that “shore duty pukes” mentality a bit.
November 26th, 2012 at 4:00 pm
David: not really. Some people will qualify under each organization’s criteria that do not qualify for membership in the other organization.
An example: A person who served from June 1976 to June 1982 and who can document 60+ days service in El Salvador in 1981/1982 – and thus eligibility for the AFEM – is eligible for VFW membership (see the link in comment 63). However, per the American Legion website (comment 70), this same individual is not eligible for American Legion membership because they did not serve during a qualifying period.
Conversely, a guy/gal who served exclusively in CONUS from Jan 1981 – Jan 1984 is eligible for American Legion membership based on service during their “Lebanon/Grenada” period. However, that individual would not be eligible for VFW membership, as they would not possess the requisite campaign/expeditionary medal/badge.
In short: different organizations, different rules for membership – with completely different criteria. One (American Legion) requires service on active duty anywhere worldwide during defined calendar periods in order to join. The other (VFW) requires documentation of service in a combat zone/eligibility for a campaign or expeditionary medal/eligibility for a specified badge in order to join.
November 26th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Hondo–true that. My eligibility for AmLegion is based on the fact I was on AD in 1989 (Urgent Fury) and 1990-91 (Desert Shield/Storm) despite having never been anywhere near Panama or Iraq.
November 26th, 2012 at 11:43 pm
and there is a difference between veterans are you going to tell me that somebody who won a silver star is the same as John Bolton or George W. Bush? I suppose to this blog there wouldn’t be.
November 27th, 2012 at 12:57 am
You win it? It’s a contest? An award is worth what the approval authority thinks it’s worth-nothing more and nothing less. To a large extent whether or not one receives an award depends on variables like opportunity, the talent of the individual writing the citation and how the one shop manages the paperwork. Good for Kerry for getting a hero badge, but as soon as he accused his fellows of horrendous crimes he dishonored himself. He could have criticized the war without slandering thousands of honorable men, but he made a different decision based almost entirely on trying to gain political credit at the expense of those men. Lots of men who showed admirable heroism in combat threw away whatever credit they had built up with foolishness later on.
November 27th, 2012 at 2:07 am
@88 Hondo,
I think that the veteran population would better be served by an organization that accepted anyone who was honorably discharged. The criteria for both the VFW and AL create divisiveness. I say this as an individual who qualifies for either. There are going to be more ’75-’82 gaps in the future and with only 0.5% of the U.S. population qualifying for membership in the last 11 years either of these organizations will have difficulty surviving. I’m 42 years old and I’m one of the younger members at my post.
November 27th, 2012 at 2:34 am
A vet is a vet is a vet. You have an honorable discharge? You’re a vet! War time, peace time, same same. Some of us were ready to go but were never called, others were called. We trained hard very day ad if the call had come, we’d of been ready.
November 27th, 2012 at 7:29 am
The Dude: 68W58 hits the nail on the head. Kerry’s service in Vietnam and his actions there should be presumed honorable until conclusively proven otherwise (the evidence made public to date that Kerry “gamed the system” regarding his Vietnam decorations is somewhat persuasive but IMO not yet conclusive). However, Kerry’s actions after his discharge – specifically, his false accusations and outright lies, and his post-service “Blue Falconing” of his brothers-in-arms – render the individual IMO worthy of contempt.
Now: if you want to talk military decorations and the possible abuse of same, we can do that. Let’s start with LBJ’s Silver Star from World War II. (smile)
November 27th, 2012 at 8:33 am
Hondo–Thanks for beating me to the punch re: LBJ’s Silver Star.
Talk about cheapening of an award.
November 27th, 2012 at 8:02 pm
This is a bit of Chicago news:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local/mathie&id=8900028
The painting of Willie Gillis: Package From Home is one of 11 Willie Gillis paintings done by Norman Rockwell.
November 27th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
Y’know…I was having a hard time articulating this yesterday, but here goes. Please forgive any foibles or missteps. It truly is not my intention to offend anyone with this post. Others maybe, but not this one.
I’m with VOV. I don’t consider my service to be on the same level as those who are in harm’s way. I went in, did what I was told where I was told to do it, I got out. Nothing at all special about it, except maybe to a computer scientist, and even at that they would likely be bored. It’s not the same. I don’t even try to pretend it is.
All that said, I’ll be damned before I let someone look down on me because we weren’t at war when I was in. I’ll be damned before I let someone look down at me because the USMC sent me to Computer Science School instead of Infantry.