West Point crybaby cries
Let me preface this with an explanation. I have no religion, it’s been decades since I stepped through church doors, not because I don’t believe in God, but for different reasons entirely. I won’t discuss it because I don’t feel it’s an appropriate public discussion. So having said that, let’s look at this pencil dick moron, Blake Page, who has resigned from West Point because he thinks that his right to not have a traditional religion is being infringed upon at the US Military Academy. Of course, when he resigned, he had to explain it on Huffington Post because anyone who disagrees with the majority of the country feels a need to make a spectacle of themselves in public to prove how independent they are.
While there are certainly numerous problems with the developmental program at West Point and all service academies, the tipping point of my decision to resign was the realization that countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution. These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation. These transgressions are nearly always committed in the name of fundamentalist evangelical Christianity.
Two decades in the military, all of it with “No Pref” stamped on my dog tags, and I never had anyone preach to me about my lack of religion. There was a pretty young blonde girl in Hinesville, GA who tried to convert me once, but she wasn’t part of the military, and it didn’t take.
In fact, as I think back on my career, I don’t think I ever knew what the religious persuasion was of any of my leaders. I remember I had a Baptist minister as one of my squad leaders in my first platoon at Fort Hood, but he never tried to influence me or any of his subordinates.
And, oh, Page is completely wrong on the Constitution;
Many here are regularly told they do not deserve a place in the military. They are shown through policy that the Constitution guarantees their freedom of, but not from religion. Many are publically [sic] chastised for seeking out a community of likeminded [sic] people because it is such a common belief that Humanism and other non-religious philosophies are inherently immoral and worse.
The First Amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” I don’t see Congress making a law respecting religion, at West Point or anywhere else, so obviously, smartypants here doesn’t know what the Constitution says. That’s probably another reason that its good that he resigned from the academy.
As the President of the West Point Secular Student Alliance (SSA), a Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF) affiliate, and first Director of Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) Affairs at West Point….
It sounds to me as if he’s a fanatic about his religion, or rather, the lack thereof, and I’m sure he’s probably done a fair amount of proselytizing himself about his personal superiority over Christians. That Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers shit gets me…like they are the only freethinkers on the planet just because they don’t want to be judged in this life by God. By the way, philosophies aren’t immoral, people are immoral.
I’m thankful that Page resigned from the Army, he wasn’t going to be a good leader, anyway, because he’s way too sensitive about his personal choices and I doubt he could keep his opinions out of the platoon CP. his single-minded adherence to all of those organizations instead of focusing on his studies and becoming a good leader would have had consequences under fire. I mean the dude can’t even read the Constitution. So the Army has dodged a bullet on this one.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
You missed my favorite line…
They are shown through policy that the Constitution guarantees their freedom of, but not from religion.
Um, yeah, show me that again in the Constitution. There is no freedom from Religion mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, and anyone who thinks that there is should be neither in the military nor in one of our most prestifious universities.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:42 pm
It drives me nuts how some atheists go on and on about not wanting to hear anything remotely having to do with religion, yet think it’s perfectly fine shoving their lack of religion down everyone else’s.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Oxygen thief. Glad he won’t ever be a commissioned officer in our Army!
December 4th, 2012 at 2:44 pm
If he was a Cadet, I bet he’s using this issue as a reason to cover some other fault that is keeping him from graduation. I think he didn’t want to be there in the first place, and saying “I quit” isn’t nearly as sexy as saying “I leftt on prinicple I tell you!”. I know nothing of this guys life though, so this is purely speculation on my part of ocurse.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
I’m also surprised he didn’t try the whole “seperation of church and state” thing being in the Constitution.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:46 pm
And people wonder why so many 2nd Lts never made it back from nam ? Prime example here. Book smart but no common sense.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
>he wasn’t going to be a good leader, anyway, because he’s way too sensitive about his personal choices
Bingo! If someone tells me they are a Baptist, Atheist, Agnostics etc. it doesn’t offend me. I believe what I believe and am confident in that belief.
December 4th, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Melle, I thought you were a member of the Scarlet Monastary?
BTW- See you at around 6 tonight? We’ll meet in that same place? (Azeroth)
December 4th, 2012 at 3:00 pm
@ TSO, I am and I am quite confident in my WOW religion.
Yeppers same place, Pray and I will be waiting.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Religions are just like sex organs. I dont care which one (or how many) you have, just don’t wave it around in my face.
On a side note, wouldn’t a leader worth his/her salt be willing to take the time to learn about OTHER religions outside their own to gain a better understanding of their troops??? Or am I WAY OFF BASE on this one?
December 4th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Just FYI I had Pagan put on mine rather than “All of the above”…
True Story…a guy in my unit had had his tags lost from his mobility folder about 3 times. They kept writing him up for it (not his fault) and he kept going to the wing to get new ones.
He got pissed after the second time and when we processed through the line and they were not in their proper place, he said “F*ck it, I’ll show them”…when they had him fill out the little piece of paper so the guy could put it in to the computer and they’d stamp his new tags, he put down “Religion: Witch Doctor”.
As God is my witness (WKRP) I saw them and wish I had a photo of them cause when I saw it in the mobility line, I about pissed myself laughing.
/the things you can get away with when you’re an AF SSgt
December 4th, 2012 at 3:12 pm
The Founders were quite implicit re: the need for a leader to have Faith in God.
Remember history, also – the same Founders were still rather pissed because an English king (Henry VIII) wanted an annulment from Catherine of Aragon. The Pope wouldn’t grant it and the Catholic Church was sent back to Rome so the English King could “establish” his own church (Anglican) that allowed divorce and annulments wholesale.
That is the basis for “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
Militant Atheists strike again. I love how there is a perceived right in this country now that says you have the right not to be offended that a religion exists. Christians exist, deal with it pansy.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
What gets me is how nonbelievers/atheists rail so hard against something they claim doesn’t exist!? The Marine Corps is probably the most conservative branch around and the only religious affiliation of any of the guys in my company, officer or enlisted, that I knew were other Catholics I went to Mass with. Crybaby is right.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
I am astounded at the social engineering being attempted in what MUST be an apolitical organization. The service (any branch) just isn’t suitable for this crap.
Tremendous difference now, from my days.
Still, it would be an immeasurable honor to wear the uniform again with these young men and women.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
I never knew the religious or political affiliation of any of my leaders in the army and, for that matter, I didn’t even know much about the religious and political views of many of the lower enlisted ranks with myself.
No one in the army ever told me to believe one thing or another. I don’t know if it was because none of that stuff really matters when you are relying on a friend to do his job and keep you alive, but I am guessing that is it.
I have noticed that both the exceptionally religious and the exceptionally non-religious are always the moste vocal in exclaiming their views to all who are near, yet each of those people dislike one another’s message even though they are essentially the same.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
This sounds like so much sour grapes to me. Cadet Whiner probably found out he isn’t going to graduate, so he decided to bail before they gave him the ax.
Because if he is suddenly quitting on an issue of principal, what took him so long? He’s been there 3 1/2 years, why wait till now to quit?
December 4th, 2012 at 3:37 pm
@12: Why would our founding fathers, who lived in the 18th century, give a FF about what Henry VIII did in the 16th century, 200+ years before they were born?
And being all protestants, why would they give much respect at all to the Catholic pope, particularly given that Catholic kings had brought ruin and revolution to England for most of the 17th Century, which ultimately resulted in the English Bill of Rights in 1689 as well as laws that required the King to be protestant?
Consider also that the reason the pope didn’t grant Henry VIII his divorce from Catherine of Aragon was because Catherine’s father, the king of Spain, was at that very moment, besieging the Vatican, not for high-minded moral reasons.
I’ve read a bit of history about the founding of the US and have never – ever – heard of any of our founders giving a rat’s ass about Henry VIII or his divorce from Catherine of Aragon. From what I can tell, they cared as much about Henry VIII’s marriages as most of us today care about Grover Cleveland’s sex life.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
@17, How about he was put on academic probation at the beginning of the 4th year. Meaning, his grades stunk for the previous three years and he may or may not graduate.
This way, it’s everyone else’s fault that he’s out of West Point.
December 4th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Blake have to serve in the Enlisted ranks since he didn’t complete his four years? Or do they just make him pay the tuition back?
December 4th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
First, I don’t give a darn about ones religion or lack there of. If you have strong character and you are a good neighbor … that is good enough for me.
I am a God fearing re-adjusted Irish Catholic, who lives 20 or so miles from West Point. My family shops there, we walk and exercise on the base and campus, we go there for religion sometimes, ocassionally a military ceremony, but mostly because it is my retired homeport now.
West Point is a great institution, including the chapels and cemetary, the buildings, the sports venues, it’s perch above the Hudson River, the cache of cannon … and othe war trophies, but most of all, it’s history and symbolic importance to our great Nation. You can feel the strength of our Nation when you visit West Point.
So in hearing that Blake Page has resigned because he put HIS agenda ahead of the aforementioned, I say, “good, because you lack charater and you are a sh*tty neighbor”.
BTW the Fourth of July Concert at West Point is the finest military musical and fireworks display on this great land!
December 4th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Holy Smokes! We have the SSA, the MAAF, & the MRFF.
All we need are some otters preaching about the logic of eating off your own stomach instead of tables, and we have a South Park episode.
HAIL SCIENCE!!!!
December 4th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
@18, Grover Cleveland was a randy bastard. Hasn’t Kitty Kelly written a book on the subject, or am I imagining that?
December 4th, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Maybe I’m a bit more cynical than most, but it sounds to me like the individual may be setting himself up for a career.
1. Do something “controversial” for your principles.
2. Write a book based on your experiences.
3. Hit the talk show and lecture circuit.
4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 as bank account requires
December 4th, 2012 at 4:18 pm
@20. I can’t say definitively that is the case, but I’ve met two people who were enlisted because they got booted. I was told this was because they had spent at least two years (IIRC- I know there was a minimum but can’t be sure I remember exactly what it was. I don’t recall any mention of an option to pay back school costs. In any event it seems unlikely he would have the means. I’m guessing that price tag would be at least 60k. Possibly much more.
It does occur to me that this could be a move on his part to get out of an enlisted hitch. You know, what with the forced religion violating his rights and all.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Maybe the guy’s just sick of so-called grownups trying to tell him to believe in fairy tales.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:23 pm
@ 26 … what fairy tales?
December 4th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
martinjmpr Says:
Actually, I think @12 just got too deep into the weeds. There had been a Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648) and a Hundred Years war (1337 to 1453), not to mention the Spanish Inquisition (1480-1834) and a Reformation 1517-1648 and Counter-Reformation, and in England, after a civil war and Reformation initiated by the antics of one Henry VIII, it was illegal to be Catholic until at least about 1829. And all of THAT happened after the Crusades.
So, religion, religious wars, and the mis-use of religion as an excuse for wars was indeed a topic of careful consideration by our forefathers, because they wanted to end the misuse of religion by scoundrels to cause wars.
What I find amusing and interesting is the way the United States, which declared that the government should stay out of religious matters, became a place where all the world’s religions could flourish.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
@26, Please refer to #2.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Good riddance to this oxygen thief
One less bonehead LT I will have to counsel and mentor
December 4th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Twist I’m just responding to the hostile tone exhibited by the so-called faithful here. You want to believe in Hansel & Gretel, knock yourself out, just don’t try to convert me to your lunacy.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
@20: When I was in the CO ARNG I had a guy in my section who was an AFA graduate, who declined to be commissioned (I didn’t ask him why) and he ended up serving 4 years in the USAF as an enlisted guy. He transferred to the Army after that (he was an E-4/SPC.)
He was also one of four enlisted lawyers I served with. I think he was an assistant prosecutor in Denver.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Am I not correct in saying the non-belivers are the reason we no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance, pray in schools and have the commandments posted.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
@31, Please point out where anybody is hostile to this guy’s lack of religion or where anybody is trying to convert you. If you want to see some hostile tones try rereading your own comments. Glass houses my friend.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Why did he wait so long to leave – took a spot from someone who might have been a good officer – at least better than him!
#20 Last I heard if he left – under good terms – after 2 years no harm no foul & no paying $$ back. After that 1st day of 3 year he can be made to pay back everything we Tax payers spent on him and be sent to the Army to be a Specialist for up to 5 years – his obligation for getting his education paid for by the tax payers and no possibility of promotion the entire 5 years.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
@ … You Aint Shit … no one is trying convert anyone here.
BTW how many years did you spend in the USMC and to what position of leadership did you elevate to?
Just curious!
December 4th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
Amen!! This guy is a POS big time and the military is definetely better off without him. I am not particulary religious, but when I was in the Army, I had the utmost respect for servicemembers who were deep in their faith, and would trust them more to watch my back. They were the ones who took the standards of integrity and honesty of our military seriously. Few tried to force their faith upon me and when they talked about how their spirituality motivated them, it was like me talking about my favorite sports team. Yes, many of them would have shunned me if they had known that I was gay, but I served back in the 1990s, and I am sure some of them that are still serving are okay with the recent repeal of don’t ask, don’t tell. This looser is just a big pussy that couldn’t hack it as a Cadet at West Point.
December 4th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
33 The Pledge is still given in schools every single day with “Under God” included just as it has been since 1954. The thing stopping school prayer or the Ten Commandments from being posted is a little thing called the First Amendment. Maybe you should read up on these things, instead of kneejerking?
December 4th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
36 I was in the Infantry, not the Marines.
“Marines take islands, the Infantry take continents.” -Sam Fuller
December 4th, 2012 at 4:58 pm
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Where exactly does it mention school prayer or the Ten Commandments?
December 4th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Ummmmm, the Marines have Infantry. What Army Infantry unit where you in?
December 4th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
@38 I’m guessing you are, therefore you are.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
Well, a lot of you guys, especially Jonn, are remarkably tone deaf to religious issues. Maybe it’s a generational thing – old guys like you (and me) were less fanatical, more live-and-let-live than this new crop of christian fundamentalist warriors, and the situation today could in fact be much worse than it used to be. This is just a different manifestation of all the stuff you read about – troops foisting bibles to afghanis, rifles with religious notations, generals telling their troops they are religious warriors in a holy war, a christian fundamentalist takeover of the USAFA, generals (active and retired) spouting fundamentalist drivel, and on and on and on. Thank goodness for people like Mikey Weinstein. Be willing to admit you don’t really have insight into the current situation.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:05 pm
Real justice would see sissy boy serve his years as an EM–with one after another of his class his superiors. And for an extra dose, he should be assigned to the chaplain.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Joe, I have never seen Bibles handed out, rifles with religious notation, or been called a religious warrior in a holy war. As a matter of fact it has been the complete oposite. If you look at chaplin services while deployed very few people go to them, from what I have seen. So I’m not getting where you are getting “Christian fundamentalist warriors” from.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:08 pm
You can have your faith as long as it doesn’t interfere with mine. Why do atheists struggle with this concept? The true question is why is this individual so weak minded to the point where he thinks people who believe differently then he are out to get him? If you want to believe in nothing, fine. If you want to believe in one God, whose name is Zorgon and lives in a lake, fine, though you may want to consider a psychological evaluation. I notice atheists are the only ones claiming persecution, discrimination, violations of their constitutional rights, blah, blah, blah, when in reality no one really cares. So why is it they care what everyone else believes in?
December 4th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
If your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, put roadblocks in your career path, then that is a definite problem. It goes further than which church you go to, what someone else believes in.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
I’ve never seen it happen. Not once. Generally it isn’t even a topic of discussion.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
@38….
Ahh…. you must be a Paultard. the first thing they always holler when confounded by intelligence that excoriates their own beliefs/arguments is “read a book!” or some variation thereof.
The clause within the 1st amendment regarding religions is a safeguard against the establishment of a state, or government, church, as in the Anglican Church of England. It protects the populace from being forced to pay tithing and be baptized within a particular religion, which was muvch the norm when the founders wrote our illustrious Constitution.
Up in New England, where I live, folks early on were required to belong to a particular church just in order to own land and live within the boundaries of the various villages towns and cities. You HAD to pay the tithing, and it was regularly collected with your taxes.
The religious clause within the 1st amendment did away with that on the federal level and, later on, under the establishment clause it was pushed through to the states.
I believe that this best sums up the situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
===========================================================
Accommodationists, on the other hand, read the Establishment Clause as prohibiting the Congress or any state from declaring an official religion or preferring one to another, but hold that laws do not have to be shorn of morality and history to be declared constitutional. As a result, they apply the Lemon Test only selectively, holding Justice Douglas’ statement in Zorach v. Clauson, “[w]e are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being”.
As such, for many conservatives, the Establishment Clause solely prevents the establishing of a state church, not from publicly acknowledging God and “developing policies that encourage general religious beliefs that do not favor a particular sect and are consistent with the secular government’s goals.”
=========================================================
If you don’t like public recognition of God, then don’t join in. I’m a Pagan, but there’s nothing in the Pledge that bothers me one whit.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:21 pm
#43 Joe: 9/10th of what you wrote is pure lie. The other 1/10 is opinion.
Is this the same USAFA with the wiccan/pagan church built because the wiccans and pagans were too good to use the common-faith building some Christians call a chapel? Is this the same Mickey Weinstein who wants our military to be as godless as the Einsatzgruppen? What Bibles to the Afghans?
Joe – you put forward lies, and then ask Jonn if he’s out of touch? You’ve managed to recycle every lie about religion in the military since Don’t Ask Don’t Tell Don’t Pursue came out.
The question is this: Will Page repay our government for his education? To him it was free. To all the readers and commenters here – you paid for Page’s education with your taxes. Page has decided to not honor his contract and should be given the choice to repay, or to serve as an enlisted man or woman (science permits that choice, too).
Page can do whatever he wants – AFTER he repays America.
And now for a question: was Mickey Weinstein ever a Christian?
December 4th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
@ Joe,
Stop taking a few isolated incidents and projecting them on “todays” military. I am just a wife, but my husband assures me that he never gave Bibles to Afganis and was told he was in a holy war by Generals. The military goes OVERBOARD to be inclusive..
December 4th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
And Twist, with all due respect, just ‘cuz you haven’t seen it doen’t mean it doesn’t happen. I have read more accounts of all that kinda stuff, from active soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, than I can remember. Either they are all making stuff up, or you are not omniscient.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Really Redacted, because I hear a lot of Christians saying the same things you claim to hear Atheists saying, so maybe such delusions aren’t something exclusive to just one group, even if one group as a whole tends to be more delusional.
Twist, if your kid had a Muslim teacher who wanted to lead class in prayer five times daily, would you be okay with that?
December 4th, 2012 at 5:27 pm
Oh good grief. Well, I hope he enjoys his time as a non-promotable E-4. Seems all bent out of shape just because he couldn’t get anyone to give him a cookie on Sunday morning. I still remember during Beast marching off to the Catholic chapel singing a cadence as loud as we could, “We are Fish Eaters, and we like to eat fish.” Sorry this guy had to go back to his barracks room and polish his boots, or whatever they do theses days.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
@ 52 C’mon Joe, I have also read that the miltiary are baby killing psychopaths– doesn’t mean it is true or even remotely indicative of all military personnel.
@53 In case you weren’t aware, California school’s already make students become Muslim for a 6 week sensitivity program.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Then I guess the thousands of servicemen and women who have contacted MRFF about unwanted religious pressure (and worse) from peers and superiors are delusional or smoking crack……
December 4th, 2012 at 5:32 pm
My family is not religious. You can call us “atheist with a small a”. We celebrate Christmas and Easter as family holidays, i.e. we don’t think we’ll melt like the Wicked Witch if we see a cross or nativity. We proudly recite the Pledge of Allegiance and acknowledge the Judeo/Christian heritage of our country.
My son had fun with the religion thing in AF BMT. They could choose from a dozen different services. If they chose not to attend a service, they could stay behind and clean the dorms. Needless to say, my son chose to go to a service. He tried a different one every week and preferred Wicca because they got cookies and punch and could sleep (meditate) during the service. He did find it strange and humorous when a colonel (male) stood up and said “I am a witch”. Apparently, everyone is a witch, there are no warlocks. I don’t really want to offend any witches out there, but we’re not the PC family and found the mental picture hilarious.
I asked him if any of them changed his mind and he said “hell no”.
Frankly, our approach to religion sure beats the one we’re fighting that likes to chop people’s head off or stone women to death. If the guy at West Point can’t handle the religious stuff at the Academy, then he sure can’t handle what’s dealt out in real life.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:34 pm
Forgot to add that at no time was my son ever pressured to select any one religion or any religion at all.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:34 pm
@ 39 Infantry Aye!
December 4th, 2012 at 5:34 pm
>Then I guess the thousands of servicemen and women who have contacted MRFF about unwanted religious pressure (and worse) from peers and superiors are delusional or smoking crack……
Or they could be just overly sensitive crybabies who have grown up in this “don’t offend me” PC culture.
I am very much like Jonn with religion and so is my husband. Neither of us have had any pressure in the 21 years he has served. Have we been preached too- sure, but no more than we hear from our atheists friends). Frickin learn to gently or not so gently tell people you disagree with them..Done!
December 4th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
This is a good conversation … the onion is pealed back. I know what is in the middle!
December 4th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
A little history that our Founding Fathers were intimately knowledgeable of:
Henry VIII, in protest created the Church of England – the Roman Catholic Church, once the Official Church, was displaced. Henry killed off hordes of Catholics under the guise of loyalty to one, state-established church.
His daughter, Queen Mary, a Roman Catholic, tried to reverse that and slaughtered many protestants. Bloody Mary was one hell of a Queen.
Queen Elizabeth reversed the pro-Catholicism and slaughtered Catholics within and outside of England.
The Roundheads and the Cavaliers made a go of it as well.
The Puritans were a reformist movement that were surpressed under Elizabeth, James, and subsequent monarchs. They ended up in Plymouth.
The Catholics, with Lord Baltimore as their patron, founded Maryland.
Our Founding Fathers were intimately aware that a state-established church lead to much bloodshed between and among families, generations, and nations. The first amendment offered by George Mason and James Madison of Virginia addressed this by saying the US of A won’t recognise any one church over another – but that all are equal in this country.
That permitted the many varieties of Christians and Jews in America to live in peace unknown in the rest of the world. Or is this too much factual context?
December 4th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Another thought… a big part of the Air Force creed is “service before self”.
“Integrity First, Service Before Self, Excellence In All We Do”
I think a lot of these whiners forget that part. Service is more important than your personal religion, gender, sex partner preference, and even your life. To serve mean to sacrifice and sometimes that means putting up with stuff you normally wouldn’t in the civilian world (perhaps a lot of the time).
I fear we’re raising a generation of thin-skinned people who only think of themselves. If they don’t like the rules, environment, commitment, etc. then they shouldn’t join.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:48 pm
Yeah, Joe, I’m too old and out of touch. Well, except for the fact that my son is currently in the Air Force.And the thousands of readers who I hear from every day who are still serving.
And, yes, since you’re unable to recognize when you’re being baited, I believe Godless heathens lie.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:53 pm
Tip of the iceberg?
http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/achievements/
December 4th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
I like this viewpoint:
“It is rigidity that is the problem, it is rigidity that is the problem in any walk of life. There is nothing wrong, for example, with religion in itself, it is the rigidity you often find that is the problem, the sense that things have to be one way and one way only.”
Says it all for me.
December 4th, 2012 at 5:57 pm
@65
No, a bunch of buzy bodies looking for job justification..
December 4th, 2012 at 6:04 pm
ahahaha! As a bred ‘n born USAF Brat with 23 plus years as a dependent, I had to ask a Protestant Chaplain what “being saved” meant. I’m sure there’s someone more deserving to fill those shoes in the mighty fine institution of Westpoint.
December 4th, 2012 at 6:17 pm
Ex-PH2,
So is the constitution “overly rigid” in mandating the seperation, the complete seperation, of church and state (and yes, it does mandate that)?
December 4th, 2012 at 6:20 pm
I have little compassion for someone who makes a solemn promise to serve his nation, then backs out when he isn’t making the grade, only to use someone else’s religion as the crutch.
I’ve seen proselytizing during my career, and comments by LTG Boykin and other events aren’t fiction….but shouldn’t be treated as the norm, nor an excuse to escape from one’s promise.
I have the utmost toleration of anyone’s religion, as long as they don’t attempt to legislate by it where there is no secular value, and they don’t get pissy when a store says Holidays instead of Christmas.
December 4th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
@69–>>
The Constitution NEVER mandated the seperation of Church and State. In fact, the early colonies and states had state churches, and it was the founders that wrote those state constitutions. Sep of Church and State besides being in a Jefferson letter(which was to assure the Church that is was protected from the state) was an interpretation based on a letter NOT the Constitution in a SCOTUS decision. And certainly the founders NEVER wanted religion completely removed from the public square-. I wish people would actually look at history instead of spouting platitudes and talking points. I cannot believe atheists who are all atwitter because someone somewhere beliefs in God.
And as an agnostic, I would rather be stuck with frickin Christians than socialists or Muslims.
December 4th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
@69: Once you realize that when you sign up for the military, you lose some of your Constitutional rights, because you fall under the UCMJ, then you can’t really use the Constitution as your go to document. Granted, no matter how many times we tell civilians like you, Joe, ya just don’t seem to get it. It seems that the same ones that want to fall back on the Constitution as a rigid document when it comes to the 1st Amendment seem to lose that same zeal when it comes to the 2nd Amendment; I wonder why?
December 4th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
It must really tick off sissy boy to hear every president say, “God bless you and God bless the United States of America.” Then there’s that money thing. He can avoid the speeches but not the coin. “In God We Trust.” Then there’s the “Christmas” tree lighting ceremony. That’s tonight, I think. What else? There’s the 10 Commandments on the doors of the US Supreme Court. There’s Congress and its opening prayer. What am I missing?
December 4th, 2012 at 6:28 pm
@ 73
There is a certain group of atheist who are like Grinches and babies.. Because they have no religion(and I use the term loosely since I believe atheism is a form of belief)- no one else should have religion..
I am sure this guy told anybody who wished to know(and some that didn’t) that he didn’t believe in the “flying spaghetti monster” or “sky fairies.” But ya know that isn’t prostelytizing..
December 4th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
@Joe – Here’s the First Amendment for you. Read it and tell me where it is a mandate.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Looks like free choice to me in matters of spirituality, up to the individual, that sort of thing.
The paragraph that I quoted says rigidity is a problem in many things, as, for example, in religion: “it is the rigidity you often find that is the problem (in religion), the sense that things have to be one way and one way only.”
Where in the world do you see the first amendment to the US Constitution expressing rigidity in spiritual matters? Or even specifying anything other than individual choice? Where?
Well, it isn’t there, so your argument that there is a mandate about separation of church and state in the Constitution, when there is no such mandate, doesn’t make any sense.
December 4th, 2012 at 6:57 pm
The problem here is what the Constitution says in its plain language and how various Supreme Courts have construed (and misconstrued) it from time to time. That’s the rub.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
@74
You said it! I find hardcore atheists and hardcore religion followers to be two sides of the same coin. I also find them to be equally annoying. During my military career I’ve met lots of “people-of-faith” and just as many “people-of-non-faith & no-specific faith”. The vast majority co-exist to accomplish the mission at hand. You’ll find that people who tend to inisist they are 100% right all the time on matters of faith/non-faith, also tend to just as hard to work with on other mundane matters.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
@76, yes, and I was trying to make a point that was apparently understood by almost everyone. Trying to stir up a disupte over something that is plainly expressed is a waste of time and energy.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
That should be “dispute”, not “disupte”.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
And, frankly, I saw aggressive recruiting by religious fundamentalists on campus in the 1970s, when I was in college, while I never saw anything in the Navy. The chaplain was there if you wanted to attend services or had some issue to discuss. That was about it.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
@53, Yet you answered none of my questions because you can’t.
I will do something that you refuse to do. If a teacher wanted to have my child participate in Muslim prayers I would tell them no, my child does not believe that way, but I would not try to keep everyone that believes that way from following their beliefs like you seem want to do.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:30 pm
Yes, #53, really.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:33 pm
So, this kid expresses his opinion and your first reaction is to attack and insult him and you really wonder why he is doing what he is doing? All you fucking idiots complaining about the “evil” atheists and their preaching are completely blind to the fucking irony of your words. Alas, I’d rather stick a cactus up my ass than have a religious conversation in an internet comments section so enjoy.
/out
December 4th, 2012 at 7:49 pm
I don’t know, Sgt Awesome, this looks more like a philosophy discussion than a religion discussion. And it looks like many of the people calling him names are atheists themselves.
December 4th, 2012 at 7:54 pm
Who called atheists evil? I have no opinion of them either way, except the weaklings that are offended by everyone that doesn’t believe as they do. They’re pure douche buckets.
December 4th, 2012 at 8:02 pm
@Joe, I never said I was omniscient, that is why I made sure that I said “from what I saw”. I would like to see some links to what you say is happening.
December 4th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
@83 in the 82 previous comments I fail to see a single comment where atheists are called evil. Nor see anyone attacking “the kid” (I assume you mean Joe) for his opinion or classification as an atheist. What I do see is folks taking issue with his contention that the military is cramming religion down service members throats en masse.
Additionally, I see you interjecting yourself into the convo with completely off base allegations. You clearly agree with Joe. Good for you. But get off your high horse and dont act like because some people here disagree with you that you are being attacked.
And also oh “awesome” one, type E5, one each; next time why don’t you try acting like a grown up and refrain from name calling and profanity. People have different opinions. Everyone seems to be ok with that but you.
December 4th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
@85 – Well said. It doesn’t matter if it’s religion or lack of religion…..if it’s not inhibiting your life, liberty or pursuit of happiness…pull up your big boy pants and mind your self.
December 4th, 2012 at 8:15 pm
In 23+ years of service I never saw any of the prosletyzing that Joe speaks of. Not saying it didn’t happen in a few rare instances but there’s a big difference between what one GI might say to his buddies and what a commander uses his power under the UCMJ to do. I not only never saw anybody pressured to attend religious services, I never knew anybody who claimed that it had happened to them. So, to the extent that it happens, it’s pretty damn rare and in no way reflects any official or unofficial policy of any military unit.
December 4th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
@83. Given your approach, I’d rather see you stick a cactus up your ass too.
December 4th, 2012 at 8:24 pm
@ 83 Why are you so overly sensitive?
December 4th, 2012 at 8:28 pm
@91. How sensitive can he be if he prefers a cactus rectal catheter to a conversation? He took his ball and went home. Also, if you want him back, you have to use radio lingo.
December 4th, 2012 at 9:03 pm
From whiney West Pointers to a cactus rectal exam. Who said there’s no humor in Obamacare?
December 4th, 2012 at 9:38 pm
@65
Joe, I took a look at your link. The very first item claimed that it was unconstitutional for a religious group to distribute a religious-themed video game to members of the military.
I didn’t really need to read past that. Your group is a bunch of hacks.
December 4th, 2012 at 11:51 pm
I am assuming this kid quit after the first 2 years right before his junior year.
If so that was 2 years of US taxpayer funded education at an Ivy League level institution to the tune of about $100,000 per year…
So the US taxpayer is out at least $200K and the Army is out a new LT in the future because this a$$hat took up a seat that could have been filled by someone else
And this guy walks away owing nothing
The Army spent less than $10K to make me a 2nd LT from a Staff Sergeant…and I am still here after 23 years of service
Funny no one mentions this fact
December 5th, 2012 at 7:03 am
O-4E: basic article Jonn cites indicates the tool was 5 months from graduation – e.g. would have graduated next year. That means he owes Uncle Same some time as an enlisted soldier unless the Army releases him from that obligation.
Things could have changed, but if memory serves me correctly a USMA Cadet who resigns during but before completing his/her 4th year of studies owes 3 years enlisted service. It’s a fairly rare occurrence but it does happen on occasion.
December 5th, 2012 at 9:06 am
@96 Hondo, yes it does occasionally happen. I worked with a guy who left Annapolis and finished his term of service as an E-5. He left because he had no college prep for the math level, which in the 1960s was very high. I don’t know what it is now, but it was very tough at the time. He was a nice guy, too.
This tapeworm admits in his blog post on HufPo that he owes the US taxpaers a considerable sum, and acknowledges that he’ll have to put in XXX years of enlisted service, but for the rest of the article, he whines about his decision being entirely the fault of the other cadets.
Look at his picture. Then look at his name. He’s a squirmy little worm, a whiny little boy. Blake? Blake Page? Who names their kid Blake? or Blaine? There’s a bigger photo of BLAKE attached to this link:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/04/15676692-west-point-cadet-quits-cites-criminal-behavior-of-officers?lite>1=43001
He’s a boring, whiny little snot and he’ll probably try to find some way out of his service contract and paying back all that money. I’m sure he’ll pop up again, so he’s on my list.
December 5th, 2012 at 9:09 am
Joe–take a hint from the people who were there, including me. No religion shoved down anyone’s throat. Religious belief (or lack thereof) did not hinder anyone’s progress through the ranks.
Being a whiny douchenozzle might have, but not their take on God.
December 5th, 2012 at 9:40 am
Found the governing Army reg. Current policies don’t appear to have changed and are in table 3 of
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r612_205.pdf
Summary:
(1) if the indiv is separated for unsuitability or disability, they get discharged.
(2) if the indiv entered from enlisted status (some cadets do) and had 6+ mo service obligation remaining at time of resignation/separation, they return to enlisted status; with <6 mo active duty obligation they are discharged.
(3) if the indiv entered from civilian status and quits before starting the 3rd academic year, they are discharged.
(4) if the indiv entered from civilian status and quits/is separated after starting the 3rd academic year but before starting the 4th academic year, they get get transferred to the USAR and ordered to active duty at the grade of PFC for a period of 2 years.
(5) if the indiv entered from civilian status and the quits/is separated after starting the 4th academic year but before graduating, they get transferred to the USAR and ordered to active duty at the grade of SPC for a period of not less than 2 and not more than 3 years.
(6) if the indiv entered from civilian status, graduates, and refuses to accept a commission, they get get transferred to the USAR and ordered to active duty at the grade of SPC for 4 years.
All of those are subject to modification by DA as DA sees fit, including the enlisted grade at which the individual is ordered to serve on active duty.
December 5th, 2012 at 10:29 am
Some of you guys are funny. What the hell does the name his parents gave him have to do with anything? Anyway, here’s his perspective, a little different from yours, and he was at West Point, and I don’t mean back in the Jurrasic era:
“Countless officers here and throughout the military are guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution,” wrote Page, who was slated to graduate in May. “These men and women are criminals, complicit in light of day defiance of the Uniform Code of Military Justice through unconstitutional proselytism, discrimination against the non-religious and establishing formal policies to reward, encourage and even at times require sectarian religious participation.”
December 5th, 2012 at 10:32 am
Joe, how are officers “guilty of blatantly violating the oaths they swore to defend the Constitution”? That’s just hyperbole with no basis in the truth or facts. You’re a fairly smart guy, Joe, so how can you even defend reposting that quote?
December 5th, 2012 at 10:34 am
He can’t, but dammit, it just “sounds” good, doesn’t it?
December 5th, 2012 at 10:36 am
I’m still waiting on links on when we forced Bibles of the Afghans, rifles with religious notations, or Generals calling us holy warriors on a crusade.
December 5th, 2012 at 10:39 am
Twist–he’s going to likely show that picture of the guy with the “Pork Eating Crusader” patch on his BDU’s.
Problem is, that guy is German.
December 5th, 2012 at 10:42 am
Joe: good to see our non-veteran rock-climbing hero and world-class expert on all matters military is back and spreading “words of wisdom”.
Did you bother to consider that the young man in question (1) is hardly an unbiased observer and could be distorting the truth or lying; (2) hardly has sufficient experience on which to base his allegations; (3) is likely writing to further a personal agenda; and (4) you personally do not have sufficient expertise on which to evaluate his claims?
Of course not. You never stop to consider such. You merely opine.
Here, you obviously do not know what you are talking about. By your own admission, you’ve not served in the military. So you have insufficient experience to even have a clue as to whether or not this quitter is lying through his teeth, is merely mistaken, or is correct. Yet you insist in spouting your nonsense anyway.
Some free advice: here you really might want to listen to those who actually have “been there, done that”. Like many of those commenting above, for starters.
December 5th, 2012 at 10:49 am
@ Hondo,
Funny Joe would rather believe some random guy on the internet instead all of us who have said that we have felt no pressure. The reason Joe believes said guy is it fits his narrow view of the world i.e., religious people are pushy intolerant people while atheists are noble, fighting the good fight. The problem is that people don’t fit into neat categories like that, and like you said Blake Page has a bias just like Joe.
December 5th, 2012 at 10:52 am
melle1228: I find it sad vice funny, actually. But I also have no sympathy for those who are willfully stupid.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:21 am
I was going to say, just wait until the Military Religious Freedom Foundation jumps all over this one, but then I see someone has already linked them. I used to think they were cool, and I’ve made peace with Mikey because he’s well-intentioned, but anything like this presents an opportunity for a spot on Maddow or a feature on Huffington Post. Just wait till you see your name mention in a piece they craft for the HuffPo with no opportunity for rejoinder on balance.
I spent my many years of service having to ask for accommodations for kosher food (6 months of kosher cheese tortellini MREs, yay), religious observance, and having to explain that my yarmulke was authorized under AR 670-1 to every NCO I came across. The invocations at every event were non-denominational only if you were Christian. And you’d get the occasional guy who deployed ONCE on Christmas but who would tell you that they couldn’t tweak the staff duty roster a day around Passover because, you know, once he deployed on Christmas. It was a challenge reconciling Jewish faith with the service, but I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. What’s a few indignities compared to everything else?
And amongst Jewish demographics, I’m proud to report that the observant set is statistically more likely to serve these days than our more liberal denominations, with less sniveling in spite of the fact that we require more accommodation than them.
For crying out loud, it’s so good these days that a murderer can keep his beard. The only other dude that has a beard in the Army is Chaplain Goldstein of the NY Guard, and he didn’t have to murder anyone to get there. And he’s there, good friends with even the most Evangelical of Christian chaplains. That should say something about the state of affairs with regards to religious tolerance in the uniform.
I don’t know anyone who hasn’t suffered an indignity in the course of their patriotic service. Sometimes, that’s of a religious nature. If someone is secure in their Vishnu/Paganism/G-dless DeGrasse Tysonness, they have nothing to fear from having to suffer through aged religious institutions. I’m glad pansies like this excise themselves from the broader service. We need team players, not people who snivel the first time they occasion moisture on their panty-liners.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:23 am
“You’re a fairly smart guy, Joe, so how can you even defend reposting that quote?”
For one, I had to re-post the part where Jonn calls me “fairly smart”, think I’m gonna print it out and have it framed. But to answer your question, I think the establishment clause has to be interpreted very strictly, many of the Europeans who came over here centuries ago were fleeing that toxic mix of gov’t and religion, and it has to be enforced in strictest sense possible. Go to whatever temple, church, synagogue, shrine you want, good for you, eally. But it’s a privatematter. Leave the government and military out of it, entirely out of it as if it didn’t exist. Once the camel’s nose is in the tent, and it’s way too far in the tent already, it’s a slippery slope to a theocracy. You think people like me are overly sensitive. I think many of you, as occasional church goers, underestimate the push by fanatical religionists to introduce things like draconian biblical law. Think of some of the comments made by christian fundamentalists running for office recently (all defeated, thankfully).
December 5th, 2012 at 11:29 am
Fairly smart feller…no, I think Jonn had it switched around a bit.
I’ll let you figure it out.
And no, it doesn’t need “interpretation” because you can’t enforce that which doesn’t exist. Freedom OF religion doesn’t mean freedom FROM religion. To do that would in fact force the government to dictate a particular point of view, contrary to the words of the First Amendment. Free exercise and all that shit, dontcha know.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:36 am
#109
OMG– You are equating being stupid with being religious. I assume you are alluding to Akin,but stupidity is rife in the political class like Hank Johnson who thought Marine would flip Guam upside down.
The problem with you Joe is that you stereotype and pigeonhole people. Get out into the world a little bit more. We have more to fear from the socialists in this country then we have to fear from those evil Christians. And for God Sake read the Constitution and some history on the founders and get off those atheist websites. The founders created STATE SPONSORED CHURCHES in their states. They didn’t want the federal government to have a religious preference but that did not mean that religion was completely out of the public venue. How can someone who thinks he is sooo logical not know how biased he is? Oye!
December 5th, 2012 at 11:36 am
@Twist – The crusade portion is likely in reference to the remarks by LTG Boykin, were he couched the ‘WoT’ as a Judeo-Christian crusade against the forces of evil…for which he was was reprimanded by the DoD IG.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:37 am
Joe: I personally think Jonn was simply giving you the benefit of the doubt or being polite.
IMO he was in error.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:39 am
The reference to scripture was on ACOGs [don't remember the company...Knights Armaments maybe?]
December 5th, 2012 at 11:42 am
Joe, that’s far too broad a sentiment to be of any real intellectual merit.
“But it’s a private matter.”
Just like the Quakers who sought refuge in Pennsylvania and my ancestors that fled the Pale of Settlement for the New World, yes, partially they fled the toxic mix of religion and government, but they also sought principally the free exercise of their own faith.
“But it’s a private matter.”
Therein lies the conundrum. For me, it can’t be, because my Constitutionally-protected Free Exercise demands that I behave and act in ways that are outwardly apparent and have an effect on the nature of my government service. And since it’s “more better” established that the government can’t stand in the way of religious observance, it’s easier to adopt a syncretic approach to faith in the military. Accommodate them all! The problem enters when you have to start accommodating a negative.
“Slippery slope to theocracy”
I fundamentally disagree with both this “slippery slope” premise and the overestimation of the strength of religious fundamentalists. If nothing else, this last election demonstrated the absence of power of this supposed cabal of Dominionist Christians that the MRFF harps about like a retarded parrot. If you mention Akin but don’t examine closely why he was defeated, you’re not thinking all the way through your own argument. Confusing the interests of a religious group to influence the national morality is a frequent fallacy on the part of those arguing for the extreme libertarian view of religiosity, and it overlooks the integral right of those people to try and influence.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:48 am
What a whimp.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:52 am
@BK – “Confusing the interests of a religious group to influence the national morality is a frequent fallacy on the part of those arguing for the extreme libertarian view of religiosity, and it overlooks the integral right of those people to try and influence.”
This is a good point. As a fairly extreme Libertarian, this is something on I continually have to keep myself in check.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Thanks CI. I had forgotten about LTG Boykin. As far as the ACOGS go, was it individual Soldiers that did it or was something the manufacturer stamped on it? I will have to look it up since I don’t remember seeing any scripture on my ACOG, and I looked at a lot of ACOGS doing the monthly 100% inventories.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:57 am
BK: well put. Those who proselytize may be a pain in the ass. But such behavior is indeed protected by the 1st Amendment – just as is that of an atheist to argue against God’s existence.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:59 am
But that’s the whole point–atheists don’t want to argue, they just want to supress, which does go directly against the First Amendment.
Oh, delicious irony.
December 5th, 2012 at 11:59 am
@Twist – It was Trijicon…stamped by the company.
http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=9527
December 5th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
@114, I stand corrected. Apparantly Trijicon put them on ACOGS without the knowlege of the Army or Marines.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:01 pm
Apparantly you and I where typing at the same time.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:02 pm
@BK.
Keep in mind that the extremely delicious creation, The Whopper, is only 55 cents with the purchase of another Whopper at regular menu price Dec 6-10 at participating locations.
Just saying..
Yummy.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
Green…you are evil, man. Just evil. There are no BK’s near work.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:09 pm
“…I’m thankful that Page resigned from the Army, he wasn’t going to be a good leader, anyway…”
IMO Jonn, that’s the money quote.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
Green Thumb: sadly, I doubt BK will be able to take advantage of that offer – at least, not in Whopper’s standard configuration. If I recall correctly such a combination is proscribed for observant members of the Jewish faith.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:20 pm
That would be an interesting idea…a kosher Whopper.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
I was a West Coast sailor, so I never made a Med Cruise, and as such, never made a port call in Haifa.
But I hear the McD’s there have kosher Big Macs, and they sucked.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Soy cheese and kosher beef – could be done.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
@128, I have eaten Burger King in Israel with. With me not being Jewish I’m not sure how they do it differently. The best thing about Burger King in Israel…is they serve beer there.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Here you go.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mckroes/351737410/
December 5th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
@128. I think a whopper, if washed down with a cream soda, is kosher.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Still waiting for Joe to tell me how officers at West Point aren’t complying with their oaths. the only restrcitions on religion in the Constitution have to do with Congress, not with military officers.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
BK: true, but I don’t believe that’s the “standard configuration” Whopper. (smile)
I have to admit I never quite understood any religion’s dietary constraints – including those of my own – other than perhaps the vegetarian teachings of some Buddhist sects (which actually seem to fit logically with other aspects of Buddhist dogma). But rules are rules. And the last time I checked most religions don’t let you “pick and chose” which rules you can follow and remain adherent.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Wouldn’t recommend holding your breath waiting, Jonn.
December 5th, 2012 at 12:51 pm
I’m surprised, usually the MRFF will send its legion of shills to eviscerate blog comment sections. They’re not all bad, don’t get me wrong, but they jump on *anything* that will get coverage.
I didn’t always successfully keep kosher; I recall these sammiches fondly. But yeah, rules are rules. There’s not a day that goes by that I don’t speculate on the cruelty of G-d vis a vis bacon. (I kid, G-d. You know we’re a’ight. Brisket makes up for it.)
December 5th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
Whopper: no ketchup, extra pickles, extra onion. Include large Diet Coke.
Cheese Whopper: Extra pickles, extra onion, add mustard, hold mayo, tomatoes, lettuce. Include large Diet Coke.
Best eaten in car while crows watch and discuss how to steal your lunch from you.
December 5th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Let’s just say a very close family member had this POS as his/her company 1SG at WP last year. Needless to say I had heard about him and his lack of leadership skills before he made the news. Now I see why…he was more concerned over his well being rather that his fellow cadets. He was relieved before the semester was over. Good ridance. Duty – Honor – Country. Nothing there about “My Feelings”
December 5th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
@137, see, this is why I won’t let my sister move in with me. She’s a convert to Judaism and she’s more orthodox than you are, and she’ll let you know to exactly how much more, also.
So that means if she lived here, I could not have butter or milk in the fridge, no bacon, no sausages, no ham and no barbecue pulled pork.
Just does not work for me.
December 5th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
@Ex-PH2 – oh, I hate that type. Converts and “returnees” stumble all over themselves to be more Jewish than Jewish. “I can’t use your bathroom because I’ll have to tear the toilet paper on Shabbos!” Give her some time, she’ll be parking her car around the corner on Friday nights the same as the rest of us, and pretending like she hoofed it all the way from home, or “bumping” into the light switch by accident. I taught in a conversion “class” once, and I couldn’t emphasize enough that they shouldn’t bring odious sanctimony along with them. No one listened.
I’ve got immediate family that loves the pig. Loves lasagne. Loves them some Jesus, even. There was a time I had to shack up with them, and I tried not to make my observances their problem.
December 5th, 2012 at 4:18 pm
BK: bravo, sir. As you’ve pointed out (and proved) one can be observant in one’s own religion while also being tolerant of those who believe differently. That’s true of all religions.
Sadly, some seem completely unable to practice tolerance. That’s true across all religions – athiesm included.
December 5th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
@142
Roger that, Brother. There is plenty of sin to go around, the Adversary being an Equal Opportunity Corrupter and all …
And BK, the Pharisees didn’t have anything on those in the Church who are so ready to pronounce Judgements like “Your hair is getting a little long there, Brother! Where were you last Sunday, Brother? I saw you talking to that Jezebel, the other day … etc, etc, etc.”
The things of the Ancient of Days are simple, it is men who make it complicated. Keep the Faith.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:00 am
You want to see God at work?
Let me get you some pictures of the Orion nebula. There are stars just being pushed out of the nursery, trailing a stream of gas that has been labeled an umbilical by the astronomers who photographed it.
Don’t tell me there’s no plan to it.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:37 am
The plot thickens….from AP: “West Point confirmed that it approved his resignation and that Page had been meeting the academic standards and was not undergoing any disciplinary actions. Page said he had been medically disqualified this semester from receiving a commission in the Army as a second lieutenant – like his classmates will receive in May – because of clinical depression and anxiety. He said his condition has gotten worse since his father killed himself last year.”
HE WAS BEING BOOTED ANYWAYS! Medically DQ’d! He just had to lob a grenade through the sally ports before being kindly shown the door. This “resignation” was BS!
December 6th, 2012 at 1:21 am
I did 20 in the Navy: Enlisted and Officer, Submarine Service and Naval Aviation (TACAIR), plus a stint flying with a Marine attack squadron; starting during the waning days of the draft. I come from a long line of military service and my adult daughter is now serving.
I may not express this in a fully PC manner, so bear with me. In the early days of my career, there was more emphasis on mission over man, which seems to be reversed now in many aspects. Seems like every time I read something military connected, it’s all about diversity, or individual rights, needs of the individual, etc. I’m not saying the sole focus on mission was fully correct; we burnt out a whole lot of troops and families. On the other hand, the constant ranting about individual ‘rights’ and diversity seems counter productive to unit integrity. Don’t get me wrong; I believe we have the absolute finest military personnel, no matter which service, Enlisted or Officer, in the world. I sometimes wonder if focus on cohesion of the military unit gets lost in all of the discord.
Having served in both capacities, I believe Page leaving West Point is a good thing for him, but mostly for the Army. His intolerance of others…at least that’s the way I see it….would have affected his ability to effectively lead. Further, is this issue really the main reason to throw away more than 3.5 years of effort, or are grades and other issues really at play? Regardless, I hope he’s held to the same requirement of paying back his 3.5 years of education as others have been and not just given a pass because he went public.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Ex-PH2 (#144),
That’s the pattern recognition software in your brain trying (unsuccessfully) to make sense of something really big and complex. When people see complex phenomena, why do they always seem to invoke a god?
December 6th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Joe: or, alternatively, it’s accurate recognition of evidence the Divine in the universe around us. How do you know with certainty which is the truth?
Short answer: you don’t – because you cannot. The existence or absence of a Deity is not provable; it’s a matter of belief in the absence of concrete proof. That’s why the term “faith” exists.
Believe whatever you want to believe; it’s a free country. But IMO, it speaks volumes about your character that you belittle others concerning their faith while demanding freedom to express your own opinion concerning the existence of God.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
“Joe: or, alternatively, it’s accurate recognition of evidence the Divine in the universe around us. How do you know with certainty which is the truth?”
Um, there’s zero empirical evidence for a god?
December 6th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
That’s OK, we know He exists. As for you, there’e zero empirical evidence for Joe.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
There is zero evidence God does not exist as well… Beliefs are funny things aren’t they? You base your belief that God does not exist on “science”? I base my belief in God(in part) that he created the science you believe in.
All things happened in such a miraculous coincidence of millions of small occurences to bring us to where we are today, who is to say that is not actually a Higher Power at work?
You knock others belief system because it differs from yours, but your is a belief system as well.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Joe has questions that he can’t answer, and no one else can, either. Plenty of argument, but no answers. I know that desolate region like the back of my hand. And all the cream cheese frosting in the world doesn’t make the bitterness of that go away.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Joe: depends on what you accept as empirical evidence. Obviously, you want something along the lines of moving finger leaving words of fire in the sky. Don’t hold your breath; God is reputed to speak with a “still small voice”.
Try considering the numerous unexplained recoveries from terminal illnesses, perhaps. Or the elegant complexity of the universe, with its layers-on-layers of different structures, all apparently governed by a few simple rules of physics. Or the elegant logic of mathematics – including Goedel’s Incompleteness theorem and Turing Unsolvability, which show some questions cannot be answered in the general case.
Further: you are equating lack of proof with proof of nonexistence. That is an elementary logical fallacy – as innumerable students of mathematics have found out the hard way over the centuries. Just because you cannot currently prove something exists (or does not exist) tells you nothing about that thing’s existence per se.
In short: your last argument isn’t worthy of a high school student studying logic for the first time. Try again.
December 6th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Faith is a gift. Some folks get it, let it languish, and it fades. Others reject it outright. Some preserve and cultivate it. When I am as smart as all of the brilliant people of faith who have preceded me in this world, perhaps I will entertain doubt.
December 6th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Hondo,
Mention it to people a lot smarter than me, like Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennet, Sam Harris or the late, great Christopher Hitchens. They would not agree.
December 6th, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Ah, a second technique of poor argument appears – “when you can’t argue the merits of your case, appeal to authority” – coupled with a second logical fallacy.
The second logical fallacy should have be obvious, but apparently wasn’t: excellence in one field does not necessarily imply even competence in an unrelated field. Were that the case, all of our political leaders would be geniuses across-the-b0ard, since they are obviously competent in politics.
If you’re buying that, Joe, I’ve got a great deal for you on a bridge.
Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett are all excellent scientists. That gives each of them no more insight regarding the existence of God than a homeless guy roaming the streets of Durango, Colorado.
Ditto Hitchens, who was a talented writer. Even while alive, that made him no more – or no less – of an expert concerning the existence of God than the next guy.
Further: various folks generally regarded as geniuses would disagree with the four individuals you name. Do the names Einstein, Fermi, Jefferson, and Descartes ring a bell? Though they might argue the particulars of His nature, as I recall all were convinced that God did exist.
In short: appeal to authority based on cross-functional competence is a big “NO GO” in rational argument, my boy. Try again.
December 6th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Einstein did not believe in god, he furiously tried to back pedal on his oft quoted saying “god does not play dice with the universe”, said he was referring to universal laws and not the kind of god most people think of.
December 6th, 2012 at 1:30 pm
And you can’t prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn’t exist, so does that mean he (? she? it?) does?
December 6th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
If we’re going to get into proof or lack thereof, the statistical probability of finding other planets that meet the PERN level of support (parallells Earth, resources negligible), then the Drake equation clearly demonstrates a high probability.
N = R* x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L (note: fl is f lamda)
N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible (i.e. which are on our current past light cone);
R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
f? = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space
In other words, the number of civilizations in our galaxy should be directly proportional to the star formation rate.
So in other words, the probability of finding life on other planets is high. The possibility of finding intelligent life on other planets is proportional to the number of planets capable of supporting life.
However, the Mars rover Curiosity so far has found only carbon-based molecules, but nothing organic in its parambulations across the surface of Mars. Of course, it’s only gone a small distance; the comparison is me going to the end of my street instead of to Chicago to see if there’s life down there. (Don’t get me started.)
So far, this means that while there probably is life in the void beyond the boundaries of our solar system, so far we have no proof of it.
To keep this clear, the term PERN is an acronym for the name of a fictional planet orbiting Rukbat, used by Anne McCaffrey in her series of novels set on a planet that was being surveyed for future colonization 200 years before Earth settlers, which series was completed by Todd McCaffrey.
December 6th, 2012 at 1:47 pm
“In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.” A. Einstein
December 6th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
I have a Nikon D300 camera that I use frequently to take handheld photos of the moon. I have a LOT of them. They clearly show the tan coloration of some of the lunar soil in places.
Those pictures also show a dot slightly to the south-southwest of the full moon. It appears to move relative to the moon’s position.
I can get a helluva lot of fun out of telling UFO hunters that it’s a photograph of an alien spaceship orbiting the moon.
The reality is that it’s a couple of hot pixels on my camera’s sensor.
That doesn’t mean there’s no alien spaceship out there somewhere. There was, in fact, the ‘wow’ signal that was picked up by accident in 1977 at Ohio State University and has not been picked up since then. The truth is out there.
December 6th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Actually, Joe, Einstein is generally regarded to believe in God as defined by Spinoza’s concept vice that of a personal God. Descartes’ concept of God was similarly non-personal – more along the lines of an “uncaused first cause”, as I recall. Jefferson was what we would probably call today a Deist. Fermi, as I recall, was Catholic and became agnostic later in life, probably of the agnostic theist variety. (And no, the two are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism holds that whether or not some things are true are unknowable and that the existence of God is among those things that cannot be known definitively. Agnostic theists can indeed be and often are adherents of organized religions.) Thus my statement that these four would debate the particulars of His nature.
You might want to emulate the students you support and do a bit of homework next time before spouting abject nonsense.
You’ve now resorted to a third technique of the lost argument: bringing up an irrelevant point as a smokescreen. We are discussing the potential existence of God, and arguments related to proving He does/does not exist. Whether or not a hypothetical “flying spaghetti monster” does or does not exist is irrelevant to that discussion. Bringing it up is an obvious attempt to cloud the issue and/or derail the discussion. Not even a nice try.
Again: NO GO – and not even a particularly strong effort. Try again.
December 6th, 2012 at 2:09 pm
Well, whether Einstein embraced a religious concept of God is really neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. I have always been impressed with how man at various stages and in varied ways has recognized a devine power much greater than his mortal limitations. Understandably, man has attributed the devine spirit to all sorts of things–until, that is, the spirit took a human form to help us understand and tell us what’s what. The New Testament is fiction to some, as the Ten Commandments are suggestions to others. Call me whatever you like. Argue whatever you like. I fail every day at something but never in my belief in God.
December 6th, 2012 at 2:10 pm
For instance, I just failed in spelling divine. I wasn’t referring to Andy Devine.
December 6th, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Links to flying spaghetti monster-related items:
Images:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=flying+spaghetti+monster&id=3B86F69CA0940D1B32B7DA43CDB51315F71A8729&FORM=IQFRBA
Place of worship for pastafarians:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=flying+spaghetti+monster&id=3B86F69CA0940D1B32B7DA43CDB51315F71A8729&FORM=IQFRBA
Wiki reference to FSM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I guess the really IS a Flying Spaghetti Monster, after all, Joe.
December 6th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Sorry, I posted the wrong link for the Pastafarians:
http://www.flyingspaghettimonster.com/
My apologies to all Pastafarians!
December 6th, 2012 at 3:05 pm
@ 159 .. That still do not explain the life forms in parts of Brokklyn!
December 6th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Just found this in the AP article:
Page expects to leave for his grandparents’ home in Wright County, Minn., in the coming days. He plans to remain an activist on the role of religion in the military.
“I’d really love to be able to do this for the rest of my life,” he said.
December 6th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
@168.
“I’d really love to be able to do this for the rest of my life,” he said. Do what, annoy people?
December 6th, 2012 at 4:14 pm
@167 — Master Chief, everyone knows that the various and sundry life forms in parts of Brokklyn are actually resident aliens wearing poorly constructed humanoid disguises. They have, like all aliens, coming here for a better life, and will stay until the murderous queenbee from Zarkon flies into the sun.
Have you never seen Men in Black?
December 6th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Shocker, just another angry and depressed atheist, railing against a world that he feels wronged him so.
December 6th, 2012 at 5:18 pm
One of our more popular stories is a non-Jew in ancient times comes to Rabbi Hillel, one of our more popular Torah scholars, and says, “teach me all of Torah standing on one leg, and I’ll convert.”
Hillel thought about it, “love your fellow as yourself. The rest is commentary. Welcome to Judaism! No bacon, and we don’t have crab legs.”
Joe, I think you fall into the common fallacy that I would even accuse luminaries such as Hitchens and Dawkins as doing. If religion is solely about mythological answers to deep mysteries, then it makes for an easy target. We can’t prove a negative in the same way the military can’t realistically accommodating a negative without un-accommodating others, which all too often happens.
The point is, in religion, G-d inhabits the goodwill between human beings more than cosmic mysteries. Hillel’s statement, nor the Christian equivalent Golden Rule, does not put any qualifiers on the definition of fellow or neighbor. Not “neighbor or fellow that believes in Jeebus/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Cthulhu/Goat of Many Young”, just “neighbor.” Consider, the rabbi sums up Torah, and it’s not about Divine revelation on a mountaintop, but rather, about bringing out the divine through human relationships.
And that exposes the other fallacy in the manner in which the supposed “free thinkers” attempt to engage religion, something people of faith too often take the bait on. You have to obviate the meaningful day to day qualities of religion in favor of attacking the esoteric elements, and when forced to tackle the grounded elements, the rejoinder is, “well that’s great, but it’s only caused more wars, these religions.”
Which is it, then? If religion/G-d is of human making, then we are in agreement as to the root cause of the problems with the human condition. You can’t blame a G-d that doesn’t exist, no? This is one of those SAT formulas at its best:
Religion is invented solely by man. Man does horrible things in the name of religion. However, if the Divine is artificial, then man invented religion, and man is the root cause of those horrible things.
Abstract conceptualization of G-d means about as much in my day to day as the laws of thermodynamics mean in yours. Whatever unseen forces govern my reality is far less important than how I comport myself, and using holy Torah as my template is of far greater utility than the counterproductive measure of egocentricity emerging from atheist malcontent quarters these days.
December 6th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
@ 170 … Ah … I forgot about those …
December 6th, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Catholics have a beautiful Mass but when it comes to knowing the Bible outside of the Gospels, we’re dead meat. Aside from SOME priests, the only Catholics I know who know the Old Testament inside and out are converts from Judaism and the only Catholics I know who know the New Testament inside and out used to be Baptists. Go figure.
December 6th, 2012 at 7:03 pm
Well, when anyone asks me about religion, I give them a blank look, then the “light bulb!” look and tell them “I’m a reformed Druid.”
Blank looks from them, so I explain: Orthodox Druids worship oak trees and kill bulls. Reformed Druids worship bushes and eat steaks, with french fries.
December 6th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlYEQ-svZDI
December 6th, 2012 at 10:43 pm
@148
“Joe: or, alternatively, it’s accurate recognition of evidence the Divine in the universe around us. How do you know with certainty which is the truth?”
@149
Um, there’s zero empirical evidence for a god?
Did subatomic particles exist prior to humans being able to point to empirical evidence of them?
December 6th, 2012 at 11:17 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tI0Qu8CdTM&list=PLFA18D72B70A68B7D&index=49
December 6th, 2012 at 11:43 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvgBDHjyyzE
December 7th, 2012 at 11:36 am
BK (#172),
Actually I follow a lot of the tenets common to many religions as far as how to treat my fellow man, just not all the irrational fluff that goes with those tenets. But that’s probably why religions are adaptive for societies – it gets a bunch of nearly solitary xenophobic hunter-gathers and allows them to live in larger and larger groups without killing each other. How about we respect each other, treat each other with kindly, but ditch all the ritualistic BS?
December 7th, 2012 at 11:44 am
Joe–horsey. Dead. Beating. Stop.
December 7th, 2012 at 11:45 am
“But that’s probably why religions are adaptive for societies – it gets a bunch of nearly solitary xenophobic hunter-gathers and allows them to live in larger and larger groups without killing each other.” Right. Have you heard of Islam?
December 7th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
Well, believe it or not 2-17, even if you lived in a third world islamic country, your chance of dying by murder is many, many times smaller then if you had lived in a hunter-gatherer band 12,000 years ago, or a present day primitive tribe in New Guinea or the Amazon.
December 7th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
>>>Well, believe it or not 2-17, even if you lived in a third world islamic country, your chance of dying by murder is many, many times smaller then if you had lived in a hunter-gatherer band 12,000 years ago, or a present day primitive tribe in New Guinea or the Amazon.>>>>
Tell that to the little girls in Afghanistan-my husband had to medevac because some Islamo idiot blew up the market they were in..
December 7th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
We now see stage 4 of the failed argument: change the subject.
Very transparent, Joe.
December 7th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
So I’m in the depression stage? What comes next, acceptance?
December 7th, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Guess he found a library.
December 7th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
@187, still looking for that thesaurus though.
December 7th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
2-17 Air Cav: not exactly – seems to be using another one of his employer’s systems. Jonn just hasn’t banned this one yet.
– break —
Joe: you tell me whether or not you’re depressed. That’s not what I said at all. I merely remarked that you’d moved on to another technique used by one who’s failing at making a logical argument – e.g., changing the subject. Common, and predictable.
December 7th, 2012 at 9:55 pm
Awesome. Next time I’m in formation and they pray in Jesus Name, ima shout “HAIL, SATAN!” as is my right. No one should object.
December 7th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
BohicaTwentyTwo Says:
December 6th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
Shocker, just another angry and depressed atheist, railing against a world that he feels wronged him so.
~~~
Vs the angry Christards beating up on him. Got it.
December 7th, 2012 at 10:16 pm
#175 Ex-PH2: Is steak sauce involved, or is that considered syncretic?
December 7th, 2012 at 10:25 pm
@190. Go for it.
December 7th, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Holy good night! I googled the wise guy, ImanAzol, and he is a career commenter. I’m talking years worth and everywhere. Rather like PavePusher.
December 7th, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Imagine that
December 7th, 2012 at 11:12 pm
@192, steak sauce is optional and discretionary, always on the side.