Wanna cut Defense? Cut the SMA
The El Paso Times has an article on the Sergeants Major Academy at Fort Bliss which reminds me of how much I dislike sergeant majors. If ever there was a waste of money, it’s that God-awful “school” for police call inspectors. I’ve seen perfectly good first sergeants (or should call them firsts sergeant?) attend and come back utter morons.
Most of the work is classroom-based with seminars, lectures and small-group studies. Students also go on a field trip to Columbus, N.M., and study Pancho Villa’s infamous raid into the United States.
To graduate, Malloy said, soldiers have to get at least an 80 percent in the leadership part of the course and 70 percent in the other four areas to graduate.
“We’re recognized as the pinnacle of noncommissioned officer education throughout the world,” Malloy said. “That’s why we get a lot of international students.”
Why would a sergeant major go on a staff ride? Did Pancho Villa leave cigarette butts on his trail? Yeah, it’s my considered opinion that sergeant major is the most useless rank and position in the Army. I know they think they’re the senior enlisted adviser to their commander, but what do they really do?
The turd with whom I went to Desert Storm was nothing but the headquarters company E-4 Mafia’s enforcer. He’d be out of breath walking out to battalion PT and of course we’d all have to run at his pace in formation and I could crawl faster. He had his favorites and protected them from any amount of discipline and work. He busted his ass to make sure that “NCO Time” was a complete waste of training schedule. And why make the E7s and E8s at battalion headquarters do anything commensurate with their rank when you can jerk a line platoon sergeant away from his troops to do it?
Yeah, if the Army wants to cut personnel, cut out Master Sergeant and staff Sergeant Major ranks, tell those staff pukes they have to take over a line unit and watch them beat feet towards retirement. Manpower problem solved.
December 28th, 2012 at 11:50 am
Jonn, if we cut back on training for sergeant major ranks, how in God’s name are we going to ensure that our soldiers in combat areas are correctly wearing their reflective belts?
Policing up cigarette butts is a peacetime affair, and besides I don’t think smoking is legal in the Army anymore.
December 28th, 2012 at 11:58 am
Dave,
You beat me to the reflective belt comment. We would be at a huge tactical disadvantage without those.
December 28th, 2012 at 11:59 am
Yeah, I guess we’d never know when to roll our sleeves down without SGMs. What was I thinking?
December 28th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
In Kandahar we had literally roving bands of SGMs whose sole purpose was to check uniforms and the like. They saw one of my pilots walking without his weapon in plain sight (had his pistol in a holster under his top) and they yelled “hey do you have a weapon?”
His response: “yes” and kept walking. They were quite upset with his failure to produce said weapon.
Sadly I have had few CSMs serve a real purpose in the organization. It’s sad really because its such a repository of information and experience but they typically get too engulfed in this Micky mouse crap that in the end serves little purpose. What a shame.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
It made more sense back when recruits needed the instructions for dumping water out of a boot on the bottom of the heel. Perhaps the current course was designed by the same Harvard MBAs the ran the Mortgage Industry…
December 28th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Papa Insanity was one of the last to make SGM without going to the academy–they called him after pinning him and told him he needed to go.
His answer: “Will you take the E-9 away if I don’t go?”
They said, “Well, no.”
He said “Fuck you, then.”
I so love him for that. Of course, I inherited that attitude. It didn’t help me in the officer ranks much.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:20 pm
It goes both ways. I have seen SGMs that give a shit and lead by example. On the other hand, I have seen men pin on E-9 and quit, focus on the grass, or avoid deployment (hang out in TRADOC), etc.
It comes down to the individual.
I do agree about getting rid of the course. There was a push when I was in to make it more like ILE. I do not know if that went through. Maybe they should just make it on-line. Hell, it would save money.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Of course, you’re absolutely right about this. For most of my career I’ve have very few positive moments with Sergeants Major and far too many negative ones. And that was just as an enlisted Marine and Soldier.
Since becoming an officer, its been even worse.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
You echoed my sentiments exactly! In my 26 of service in the army, I could count on one hand the number of SGM/CSMs that were worth a shit. You could take this a step further and eliminate the SMA position too. Just what in the hell is it he does? SMA Chandler should be an advocate for the enlisted, but it seems he is more interested in lining up folks to throw out of the army during the upcoming drawdown. The folks at Taco Tech (The Sergeants Majors Academy) take really good E8s and ruin them. They do three operations down there, excise all spinal tissue, remove all testicular matter and conduct a total lobotomy. Just my two cents.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:27 pm
@4 – Saw them in Jalalabad too. When the order came down that combat shirts were no longer allowed in the chow halls, there were two SGMs that helped enforce it. There were four troops who had been medevaced to J-Bad following an IED strike, and all four of them were wearing combat shirts and obviously had no other uniforms. After being “caught” trying to enter the DFAC by the SGMs, they explained their situation, and the SGMs STILL denied them entrance. It took the intervention of a full-bird Colonel who was walking to get them in the DFAC.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Dude, don’t get me started….
I’ve always thought that the CSM/SGM rank was a sort of booby prize, like saying “we know you humped a ruck for 20 years, led a squad, then a platoon and finally a company, so now as a prize we’re going to put you in a position where you really have no responsibility but lots of authority and you can just sort of walk around and tell people what to do, as long as everything you order them to do is pointless chickenshit or busywork.
(OTOH, 1sg has to be one of the toughest jobs in the Army – the few times as a PSG that I had to temporarily step into the 1sg’s job I was always very quickly overwhelmed.)
When I was at Camp Arifjan in 2004, we had a CSM who would station herself outside the chow hall to spot uniform violations. That was pretty much her entire job. Her big thing was making sure that soldiers who wore Boonie Hats had the little drawstring thing under their chins instead of up inside the crown like most of us wore it.
I’ve also encountered barely-literate CSMs like the one for ARCENT Forward in Kuwait who put out an email reminding all senior NCO’s that we had to attend “Ethnics Training.” Of course, the briefing he was referring to was the mandatory ethics training , but that’s how he spelled it in every single email, and also that’s how he pronounced it. I think he genuinely though the word was “ethnics.”
Our own CSM seemed to have no job other than trying to spot uniform violations. At the time of our deployment, the movie “Office Space” was one of our favorites and so we would joke that the CSM was coming by our section to make sure everyone was wearing at least 15 pieces of flair.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Best quote from the article:
“We are critical to the force,” Malloy said. “You can’t live without us.”
bwahaha, really?
December 28th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Expanding a bit, I think the entire NCOES system is ripe for an overhaul. I was not in the combat arms (most of my time I was an MI analyst) but I can honestly say that the only NCOES school where I actually learned anything that was of practical use in my career was PLDC. And the primary reason I learned stuff at PLDC was because I was at Ft Lewis, home of the 2nd Ranger Bn, and the NCO Academy had a (very smart) policy of putting one tabbed Ranger into every small group. Pretty much every important thing I learned in that school I learned not from my cadre “small group leader” but from that squared-away Ranger.
BNCOC and ANCOC were pretty much “ticket punches.” You go in, do the mandatory training (that is based on book doctrine, not real world applications) get your ticket punched and then leave. It’s basically a paid vacation.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:43 pm
A good CSM is a force of nature that will keep a CO in line and remind him that his glorious plans require troops that haven’t been marched into the ground or spent all their time in the classroom instead of the field. The question is, how do you find good ones?
December 28th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
@11: you hit the nail on the head! In my office we all (officer) joke about and fear the day when we are BN or BDE commanders and we get that barely literate CSM… How the hell do you deal with that!!? I recently had a very educated BDE CDR and a what can only be described as mentally challenged CSM and our question was: what goes through your mind as that CDR, when on one hand you have to support your “battle buddy” but on the other hand… He’s a mental child!
“That’s right battle buddy, we need to get this ethnical training squared away!”
My favorite CSM quote: “it would be Hooah of you…” (As opposed to “it would behoove you”)
December 28th, 2012 at 12:57 pm
From my service in two branches Navy/Army I can count on one hand E9s that were worth a shit.
Four were MCPOs 1 was a CSM.Most E9s forget where they came from.
December 28th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
@15: I came in during the Carter “hollow army” years (1980) when the army’s recruiting motto was “we’ll take anybody.” CSM promotions in the 80′s and early 90′s were from that cohort of troops and seemed to be made based on who had stuck it out longest, not who was more suited for the job.
In theory the selectivity and higher standards of the 80′s and 90′s would mean that you would have a better pool of potential SGMs/CSMs, but in reality, those who would probably make the best CSMs have either retired by that time or else found their way into the commissioned or warrant ranks. What’s left are the dregs and that, too often, is who pins on the E-9 rank.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
I am so pleased to be able to read the quotes of disgruntled “want a be’s” who are either unsuccessful in thier own Army careers, or those who flaunt “having served 26 years” and learned nothing about loyalty to our Army and our Nation.
In fact, the mere reason that you have the right to publish such disloyal BS was made possible by the blood of hundreds of thousands of “Real” Soldiers who fought to defend this Nation and our Constitution…thus your right to “freedom of speech”!
Having served for over 32 years now, I would like to exercise my own “freedom of speech” by saying you disloyal pieces of work don’t deserve to be called Americans, let alone being called Soldiers — you should be removed from the Rolls of American’s finest who you so sadly disgrace with you childish/anti-American rhetoric. Grow up and start contributing to Society!
“Ultima Strong!”
Proudly Serving – Fort Bliss, TX
December 28th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Having said the above, I will make an exception for SF. Most SF SGMs and CSMs are pretty squared away because unlike their counterparts in the conventional units, they are typically not that far removed from being on a team themselves and have had to stay pretty proficient in most military skills.
Of course, in SF you have SGMs at the Company level, which means that an SF Company SGM is, in all but name, a 1SG.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
So, now, in the Army Aviation structure we also have a CWOB (Chief Warrant Officer of the Branch) and a W5 assigned as the senior advisor to the commander (at least at Brigade, not sure about Battalion now) on Warrant Officer issues.
I guess the good news there is at least you can use him as a crewmember if you need to.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
#18 Now you’ve done it.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:07 pm
Post no 18 is the most brilliant satire I have ever read.
Well played, sir. Well played.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:13 pm
There are to points of view.
When I was a private-young NCO, every board I ever went to you needed to say “I want to be the CSM of the Army”. Sorta required to walk in the door or advance. You did not have to believe it; just had to say it. See, the dishonesty and lying starts early. AND its encouraged.
When I became an officer, one would just roll their eyes at the assclownery of it all. But then again, if one stays enlisted for twenty plus, does on not want to make E-9? Or if they get there, are they going to change the “world or culture”? Or become a victim to it like all the rest and “chill”?
Now do not get me wrong, the same can be said of officers. Fuckers hanging out in support ops or in the shops. Turds.
To paraphrase, what is the difference between real and perceived expectations?
Two observations: 1) The illiteracy aspect is spot on. Sad, but true. Nothing is every done about it due to the sorry shape, nature and requirements of NCOES schools. Some of the biggest morons I have ever met were in those schools. And @13. I was that “tabbed” guy in those schools. Only one too, most of the time.
2) Without SGMs, we would be missing out on some of the funniest, dumbest insults and adjetival descripitions I have ever heard. One thing that I miss.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Damn.
“Two” points of view.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
Bravo #18, do I know you??? I never thought there were so many braineacks who knew so much about so little. Luckily, the structure of the Army is decided by people with a little more insight, intellectual capacity and forethought. What appears to be a few individual malcontents whose experiences with a few dud sergeants major should encapsulate the feeling that the position is meaningless and a waste of valuable resources. Hell, lets eliminate the entire rank structure. Yea, eliminate every enlisted position, why just stop at Sergeants Major….. Why even have an Army, since all you Einsteins feel that even one rank is senseless. You were probably dud platoon sergeants and squad leaders who were 60 percent soldiers. Did you hit 40 for 40 every time, score 300 on all your APFT, or excel at everything you did or were you just mediocre and did you lead your Soldiers to be 60 percenters. You sicken me with your intellectual ineptitute. You know the phase: stupid is as stupid does. You’re the reason why they have to remind you to wear reflective belts, because you can’t see the forest for trees. I applaud your candid to criticize something you clearly don’t understand. Thanks for being small and narrow minded. It gives me hope that other Category 4 mental giants like you can open you fat mouths and babble on about other subjects you know nothing about. You all scare me.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:15 pm
@18,
If you actually gave a shit about what you’re saying, you’d sign your name to it. It’s called “Leadership by Example”, but apparently you’ve forgotten that bit.
So my guess is that the comments you are critical of strike awfully close to home and make you more than a little uncomfortable, right? Good. Self-examination is always a good thing, but it’s also sadly lacking in the majority of the senior NCOs of all branches.
So since you’ve “served” over 32 years now, why don’t you move your butt off into retirement and let someone who actually has a rational thought step up.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:18 pm
From an article published in 2001 when they were investigating making an E-10 pay grade:
“Further Down The Road To The Enlisted Generals
8/06/01
At a time when our military is suffering from low morale, lack of funds and a rank structure that is increasingly top heavy and short on trigger pullers, some politicians and military leaders want to create a super NCO rank, the E10. Proponents of the move maintain that enlisted soldiers, serving directly with senior flag officers deserve additional recognition, one commentary insisting that noncommissioned officers deserve the rank for serving in command level jobs with far greater responsibilities and longer hours than others. That’s right about longer hours, but wrong on command responsibilities. NCOs don’t command organizations.
As a former enlisted man, I am a fervent supporter of the leadership contribution that our NCOs have made in our military. I’m also convinced that many have the exceptional talents that, as in other countries, they should be given greater responsibilities, such as piloting certain fixed wing and rotary aircraft, and assume the majority of officer-tagged platoon leader positions in our line units.
What disturbs me about the E10 creation is that it further advances a late 80s trend to pattern senior NCOs after the officer corps, including all the careerist requirements for ticket punching and superficial glorification of the mediocre.
Today even the NCO efficiency report, once a simplistic report, concentrating on essential and mainly hands-on skills, resembles an officer report card. This includes overemphasis on the file picture, since prettier must be better. There is also overemphasis on a rapid succession of career enhancing assignments. Today’s NCO better have been a platoon sergeant,
drill sergeant, recruiter, master gunner, first sergeant, operations sergeant and have attended a multitude specialty schools, right on time.
With the exceptions of the NCOs in Light, Ranger and Special Forces outfits, we’ve now copied the officer experience by producing too many “Jacks of all trades” who lack true expertise in the critical combat and support skills.
Today, the super “admin NCO Corps” rules supreme. They can talk like officers, walk like officers, e-mail like officers but have also lost contact with the troops, just like their officers. Recent chaos over uniform modifications and personnel policies indicate that senior NCOs can’t balance out of control generals but simply go along to build their own empires.
Other proof of empire building is evident in the field:
* “Change of responsibility” ceremonies for Command Sergeants Major are now in vogue, eating additional troop time.
* Sergeants Major spending increasing time in meetings with First Sergeants and other Sergeants Major, rather than with the troops.
* Sergeants Majors touring posts in helicopters, dedicated staff cars, flying special CSM identification stickers to ensure that the troops react as if they were commanders.
* An over-abundance of parking spaces in front of PX and Commissary, dedicated to Command Sergeants Major.
* Units suffering from dual chain of command syndrome, when officers and NCOs contradict in planning and execution of orders.
My answer to the E-10 hype is to raise the salaries, prestige and proficiency of those “Warrior NCOs” who produce bang for the buck, versus creating more “chiefs with better briefs.”
Reduce the numbers of officers running platoons to only one per company, in addition to an executive officer and company commander, but allow officers to remain in position at least two years. Senior NCO would lead the remaining platoons for at least five years and rate a hefty leader bonus for the job, a great improvement for force stability and a miracle cure for unit
combat proficiency.
Give the First Sergeants stability in position with a leader bonus for their proficiencies. First Sergeants can run companies without much interference from a Command Sergeant Major at battalion level.
With stabilized NCO proficiency in the line companies, eliminate the Command Sergeant Major in the battalions and replace him with one highly operationally and tactically proficient Operations Sergeant Major, one who functions as the key advisor to the battalion’s staff and the commander.
We must get the NCO Corps back to running the day-to-day operations of our force hands-on, with lots of authority and based on experience. Creating more staff NCOs and paper killers won’t help the readiness.
I am delighted that most Service NCO leaders are still reluctant to endorse the E-10 concept, indicating the survival of some common sense.
Unfortunately, the E-10 brain-bomb could ultimately survive because it originated with the same members of Congress who throw money at every problem, and who proposed to sprinkle five-star ranks on our Desert Storm generals, comparing victory over a Third World country with WWII.”
December 28th, 2012 at 1:20 pm
I didn’t write the article btw…just remembered it
December 28th, 2012 at 1:23 pm
@18 and @25 — well written both of you, your ability to express important salient viewpoints clearly define your capabilities.
It’s heartening to see such fine examples of the necessity of the CSM position. Keep up the great work, no doubt we will be anxiously awaiting your next powerfully outlined and articulate responses.
Thank you so much, and have a Happy New Year….or just f$ck off whatever works better for you.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
SGM and CSM are more about politics then anything else. I made it to E-7 in 10 1/2 years and hit the glass ceiling. Name any variety of reasons, no Ranger tab, wrong ethnic class. And don’t tell me race didn’t matter. My CSM sat on the E-8 board when I got selected but because the racial quotas weren’t met they were told to stay in session until they were. As a result my name came off the list. He was one of those CSM’s you could respect. He called me into his office and told me in person. He was black and I am white. Of course once you’ve been passed over you can pretty much forget it. I retired after 22 years, meaning I spent more time as an E-7 then it took me to get it. No I had no Art 15′s, court martials or any other adverse actions. Concentrated on my college degree to prep for civilian life. I did spend plenty of time also in E-8 positions. After serving 22 years in the Infantry I only had 1 white 1st SGT, he was actually a German and 1 white CSM. That was life in the Infantry back then 80′s -90′s.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Its a shame that they believe that the Sergeants Major Academy is a factory for idiots, when it fact, their job is to educate sergeants major to assume positions as operations sergeants major and not CSMs. That’s a whole different program, but the Einsteins all know that. Apparently the one who criticized the staff ride to Columbus, New Mexico and Pancho Villa’ raid, failed to connect that General John “BlackJack” Pershing went after Pancho over the following year and for the first time used trucks and airplanes and learned a whole lot of lessons that he took to Europe, where he lead US forces to win WWI. Funny what you can learn about logistics because Pancho did not like the decision our president make to not back him vice Portifio Diaz. But I’m just a dumb retired SGM and CSM.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:35 pm
@31.
A little bit of knowledge sure goes a long way.
Case and point.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Veritas Omnia Vincit, your tag line is very apropos. Truth does conquer all.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
When I got released from nine days in Panamanian prison on trumped up kidnapping charges, after getting the crap beat out of me every morning for breakfast and living in a rat infested hole, with a milk carton for a toilet and a newspaper for a bunk, the PMO got me released finally and took me to my Bn HQs. The CSM met me at the door and asked “Didn’t they let you shave in there?” Concern for troops.
Disloyal? Disgruntled? How about disillusioned? How dare you when the SMA goes to Afghanistan for a day and tells the assembled troops without going on patrol himself, that they’re the reason for “insider attacks”? If they weren’t such insensitive louts, the Afghans wouldn’t be sneaking up and killing them.
Why does a Marine general take a stance against the latest pamphlet that blames the troops, but the SMA is silent, except for spitting out the party line instead of sticking up for the troops. Fuck you and your 32 years if you want to be a part of that bullshit.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
@18-my loyalty is to the Constitution of the United States. No where in the oath of enlistment or oath of office does it say I have any loyalty to the Army or to any officer or enlisted rank.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
@29: LOL. Yeah, they are a thin-skinned bunch, aren’t they? I guess in addition to the surgical operations described in @9 we should add “removal/thinning of epidermis.”
It’s worth noting that the E-9 rank didn’t even exist until the 1960′s, IIRC (the “supergrades”, E-8 and E-9.) Before that, SGM was a duty position, just like 1SG or PSG. Seems like we did just fine when the E-grades topped out at 7. Honestly, I’d favor returning to such a system as long as those who were actually in 1SG slots received an incentive bonus for all the additional thankless work required.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Speaking from a Navy POV, I think my experience with Command Master Chiefs is probably about 50/50. Some are just political hacks and kiss asses, but others are fantastic leaders that do a difficult job. The Master Chief of my Seabee battalion when we deployed to Afghanistan did a great job as Senior Enlisted Advisor to the skipper (basically keeping him out of trouble and out of our hair) and he was a good mentor and role model to the troops.
Other Master Chiefs that were not Command Master Chiefs were usually the hardest working guys in the CPO Mess. Every now and then, there’s a political shitbag that only cares about his own career, but in my experience the majority of MCPOs are not shitbags. I’m not sure if I’ve just been fortunate or if it’s a Navy/Army thing or what.
Just my two cents.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
@27: Re: “Enlisted Generals.” Here’s a pointless bit of military trivia: The rank of Major General was originally an enlisted rank. The original title was “Sergeant Major General.” True story.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:47 pm
A prime example is SMA Chandler. He seems to spend most of his time revising the uniforms policy and worrying about the enlisted soldier’s haircuts.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Well damn FUBAR now you gone and done it. Just had to go out there and question everybody’s credentials as NCO’s painting us as losers. Here goes chump. In addition to making E-7 in just 10 years, back in those days it took 6 years just to make E-6, I won so many Soldier/NCO of the Month, Quarter etc that me and the wife just piled the awards into a box in the closet. My highest one was Runner Up NCO of the Year for Ft Benning. I always scored the max on the PT test, never had a height/weight issue, consistently had the highest number of soldiers earning their EIB’s and excelled on all external evaluations. The day after I pinned on my E-6 stripes the Bn Cdr called me to his office and offered me the Scout Platoon. So ya, I was always what you call a high achiever. Beyond the Army I also qualified for a tryout for the US National soccer team and missed by 3 minutes of qualifying for a slot at the Olympic tryouts in the 10km event. I got a degree in Computer Science while minoring in Business Mgmt and Crimminal Justice. Yes I shot expert with the M16 and spent time as a sniper instructor also. I also fired expert with all the German weapons as well as being certified on the TOW and Dragon missile systems and earning my secondary MOS of 11C the old fashioned way. I spent time with a mortar platoon and actually did the job. So yeah I guess by speaking ill of CSM/SGM I am just some sort of unAmerican puke who just skated by.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Oh yeah forgot I was honor grad out of BNCOC and ANCOC.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:53 pm
For me the problem with getting to the “top” of whatever heap you are crawling up requires help no matter who you are. For a great many would be leaders they forget that the help they received from subordinates and superiors brought them to the top, consequently they believe they have earned a different set of “rights” than those now below them. They didn’t earn different rights, they earn some perks. Proving your superiority by becoming a first class douchenozzle does little to extend your knowledge base into the troopers you serve.
The problem with many of those who earn top enlisted, or top officer spots is they forget the word service. To be blessed with the honor of serving alongside American soldiers is to be respected, leading, caring for, and inspiring those troopers is something that is the responsibility of those at the top. They are charged with ensuring operational success certainly, but they owe a debt to their subordinates that too many top spot heroes overlook. That’s how respected colonels become generals who are forced to resign for adultery, misuse of funds, and a host of other recent high profile f$ckups in the officer corps. On the enlisted side those respected 1SGs become j#rkoff CSMs who sh1t on everybody under their command, it seems too many lose sight of why they are there. Because they are surrounded by others kissing their 4sses and bowing and scraping they actually think they are doing the right thing, and that’s how articles like this get written. Because some 4sshole forgot why he joined in the first place when he lost his soul after reaching the “top”.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
@37: Oddly enough, I think one of the reasons so many of us in the Army can tell “CSM stories” is because in other branches of service (namely the Air Force but I guess perhaps in the Navy, too), a senior enlisted man is often a highly experienced technical “expert” performing a highly technical job. But in the Army, many of those jobs have now gone to Warrant officers and it is an article of faith that NCO’s always have to be in “leadership” positions.
In the British military (and other services that model their rank structures after the Brits), “Warrant officer” is not even an “officer” in the commonly understood sense (IOW, not part of the Officer’s mess, doesn’t rate a salute) but is actually a senior noncom.
If we took a lot of the jobs that are now done by Warrants (communications specialists, military intelligence specialists, maintenance specialists, helicopter pilots, and so on) and made them senior noncoms, it would boost both the prestige and the talent pool of the senior NCO ranks.
With the exception of the pilots, the Air Force has done this already – jobs that would be done by Warrant Officers in the Army are typically done by E-7/E-8s in the USAF.
I can’t help but think this is one of the reasons you don’t hear as many “dud CMSGT” stories from the USAF as you hear “Dud CSM” stories from the Army.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:56 pm
@41.
Cool.
The last SGM I had when I was enlisted threw all of my gear off the balcony during a C/I. It was clean, too.
Keep in mind I was the only “tabbed” E-4 in the Company and one of two in the Battalion. No Tabs in the PLT either, minus the PL.
Guess what, SGM had no Tab. Odd how that works. Thing is, I never got an explanation as to why he did it. My PLT passed inspection.
I will say this though, my 1SG and my PSG helped me pick it (gear) up. That spoke volumes.
December 28th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
@42
Two GREAT examples of leadership failures – the black beret and the ACU
Generals made those ultimate, horrible decisions…BUT…there were a LOT of SGMs who didn’t say “WTF Sir?”
In fact a lot of them published articles on what great decisions they were
December 28th, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Trent, if you are still on active duty, you may want to read the Manual for Courts Martial before you make any more disloyal statements, because you would be subject to charges.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
FUBAR loyalty like respect is earned not demanded. Or don’t they teach that anymore in the NCO academies?
December 28th, 2012 at 2:08 pm
FUBAR, you made my day! Thank you.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:13 pm
FUBAR, instead of making idiot pronouncements like that, maybe you should quote from the manual. You might want to point out where Trent made a disloyal statement, too. Unless of course, you’re a hypocrite.
I don’t much like DA civilians who work at the SMA threatening my folks.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
@45 indeed, too much 4ss kissing and not enough respectful dissent. The best officer I ever served under made it clear that he didn’t need his 4ss kissed, he wanted subordinates who were clear in understanding they did as ordered ultimately, but when asked for an opinion an honest one was expected not a politically correct one.
He never was offended by a contrary opinion that I could see, and no one was ever made to feel they were out of line for offering one….he was a complete opposite to our previous commander who only wanted 4ss kissing yes men responding to his requests for an opinion….
December 28th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
We should be grateful that FUBAR came on here and validated every one of Jonn’s points.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:18 pm
Methinks FUBAR has never been around a SPC. Best rank ever invented. Too much seniority for the really shitty details and not enough rank to be put in charge, but never, ever, ask one for his opinion unless you really want it.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:29 pm
“But I’m just a dumb retired SGM and CSM.” Fair enough. Seriously, FUBAR, you are entitled to sppose the predominant view here. Me, I couldn’t care less one way or the other about the issue, but when you accuse someone of disloyalty, that’s a bit over the top.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Being someone who was on the path to SgtMajor when I retired ( I was a USMC E8 1st Sgt) I’d like to weigh in on the issue. Pretty much every top level school, enlisted or officer tends to cram 2 weeks worth of pure bullshit into 8 Weeks.
The Marine Corps has two flavors of E-8s. Master Sgt and First Sgt. The big difference is that MSgts stay within their MOS as a technical Expert and 1st Sgts gain a”new” MOS 9999, 1st Sgts are assigned to company sized units as an enlisted advisor to the CO on leadership and administrative matters. 1stSgts may have been Motor Transport, Aviation, Communication or Supply. They could end up as a First Sgt in Charge of an MP Company, Base HQ company or in a combat arms unit. The gist is that the 1st Sgt usually has no fucking clue about the jobs his men have. So a Lot of First Sgts ( and then SgtsMajor) end up doing the only thing they know,,, reenforcing basic skills, So you see them doing a lot of chickenshit like looking for bad haircuts, uniform infractions, cigarettes on the ground, Etc.
A Good 1st Sgt/ SgtMajor (at least in my opinion) is a mentor for the NCOs and the guardian of enlisted men against the chickenshit that comes down the pike. He’s the guy who is all about troop welfare and morale. He should be the guy more worried about how Corporal Smith is dealing with his newborn son than an Irish pennant on his fucking pocket. It doesn’t hurt to take a hump with one of the platoons to the grenade range and observe. Go on a PT run with the admin section. Watch the Squad leaders do a personnel inspection, then do a class on how it went. Take the platoon Sgts for a day of golf or lunch, all the while picking their brains on how their lts are in order to brief the commander.
What you shouldn’t do is be like the dumbass Sgt Major I saw at Camp San Mateo who would stand at the gate and chew out any Marine who drove by not wearing his cover inside his car.
One thing that doesn’t help is that realistically a Staff Sergeant (E6) is probably the only NCO that will be called on to fill an officer’s billet. A platoon is about the highest command an enlisted Man will hold. With dam few exceptions, and that being one where extreme casualties were suffered you don’t see an enlisted man in charge of a company, And you wont ever see it in peacetime.
First Sgts and SgtMajors aren’t groomed for command of units. They typically do what the commander says, and that usually busy work aka chickenshit. We probably need to stress they need to be the technical and tactical experts they were back in the old days, and not the CO’s Lap dog or an overpaid grounds and maintenance supervisor.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
I’ve had some nifty Sergeants Major, but they were always kind of riding their reputation earned when they were still first sergeants, or before. Otherwise, I thought they were doddering old men that handed out Werthers for a rendition of the division song or if you played some bizarre Army trivia game.
Without Sergeants Major, we’d have no one to:
1) glower at you during NCO or Soldier of the Year boards
2) make you walk back a mile from the dfac on FOB Liberty because you forgot your eyepro
3) miss every opportunity to condescend to the captains in the S3. What happens at the SMA to neuter these people? Only the Sergeants Major that go on to be commandants seem to have the ability to be annoying (although they go above and beyond and usually go scorched earth–CSM King)
Remember McKinney? He watched us do a live fire in a tirehouse up at Fort Richardson. Bundled all up in cute Air Force snivel gear, gets out of his UH-60, starts talking to us about quality of life issues, and correcting one of our squad leaders about the use of the term “Joes” because it excluded female soldiers. Ironic, no, considering there were none present and what we know now of his special affinity for female soldiers. Another useless role, so utterly unimportant that McKinney’s non-evil twin could fill the job.
December 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
@20: yikes don’t get me started on the CW5 in aviation… Another issue of juice being worth the squeeze….
Bottom line: if you put people into positions of absolute authority without responsibility don’t be surprised when they sit on their rear end and pontificate on what “right” looks like without actually doing anything…
December 28th, 2012 at 3:02 pm
But then I think of the Don Purdy’s of the world. The Rakkasans lived and breathed stories of his time as “smag” at 3/187th, including his now famous, and exquisitely brtual Air Assault school graduation speech (the “shoot you all in the leg and make you walk 12 miles” bit)
One rainy day, he saw a bunch of soldiers standing out in the rain for the line to the DFAC, so he rolls around in a puddle just to motivate them. Someone told me he low-crawled in class As on payday activities just to make a point. And of course, there’s the story of a guy driving on Colorado coming back from Clarksville one night, and sees this cat low crawling across the road. Figuring it was a private being punished for something, or some drunken antic, the driver rolls up and was “what’cha doin?”
CSM Purdy jumps in his window, with full warpaint on, and says, “Don’t you know I could have killed you? Never interrupt a man when he’s training!”
Maybe the SMA has become a bastion of PC uselessness *because* of guys like Purdy. Who knows? He’s not being replaced by any of today’s crop of noncoms.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
You know, I think the best way to determine whether someone adds value to an organization is to see what happens when they’re removed from it.
I’ve seen companies fall apart when the 1SG leaves and is replaced by an incompetent. Ditto for Platoons and Squads.
But what happens if the BDE CSM retires or takes an extended leave and isn’t replaced? Does anybody even notice?
That should tell you something right there.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:04 pm
@ #43: Thanks for the analysis. In my Air Force career I just didn’t run into that many incompetant SrNCO’s. Figured maybe I was just lucky!
Funny story, though. During a state emergency, we had a bunch of ANG folks of all ranks volunteer for duty. One of the JAG’s was out working with all the other grunts getting pretty dirty in the process. The Army was in charge. The whatever kind of sergeant it was heading up the area where he was working was highly offended that he was doing grunt work. He finally told her to come get him if they needed a lawyer, but until then he would be in the trenches with all the other ANG volunteers, none of whom were doing jobs they normally did in the military either.
So, yeah, even though I did not witness it myself, apparently the Army is much more rank/position conscious than is the Air
Force, depending. Then again – there is a different dynamic going on among flying units of all services where it is typically the enlisted who send the officers out to fight instead of vice versa.
All just to say that I defer to all you Army types whose opinions were formed based upon personal experiences with idiots who perhaps should never have advanced beyond E-5. Meanwhile, I will remain grateful not to have had any similar experiences.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
I don’t really have any ‘bad E-9′ stories from my time in the Navy. I wasn’t in too long, but the few of them that I knew were either pretty well respected in their field, or CMDCM’s who seemed solidly joined to the career counselor.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:24 pm
One kept my butt out of a fire once. I had a major fight–and I mean major. My opponent was drunk as a skunk and just would not quit. The next day, he looked like someone had taken a tire iron to him. My Top took me to the SM and, after he heard what was what, told me to go and sin no more. I later found out from Top that the SM enjoyed jumping a table or two himself. Of course, this was a time long, long ago and far, far away.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
@59: I think what has happened is that the Army is still operating with a WWII (or even older) style of rank structure. Having created a lot of senior NCO billets they then have to fill them and assign them jobs, even if there are, in reality, no actual jobs for them.
Think about what this means: It means you are assigning people to the busy work of creating and supervising other busy work. It’s like we have a whole echelon of Lumbergh’s, whose job it is to make sure everyone puts cover sheets on the TPS reports (did you get that memo?) Whether the TPS reports need cover sheets or whether it’s even neccessary to send out the TPS reports is irrelevant.
So what kind of people does this attract? Those who have talent and ambition? Those who want to be valuable to an organization and to assume challenging and difficult tasks?
Hell no! It attracts ticket punchers who know that if they have no actual job, then nobody will be able to tell them they’re not performing. People with talent and ambition move on – to retirement and civilian life, or to the officer ranks (primarily warrant officer) where there are still challenges and where the incompetent and lazy will quickly be revealed.
The rantings of FUBAR and his buddy “Grow Up” are sadly all too typical of the CSMs and SGMs I’ve known. Insecure, Thin skinned, intolerant of contrary opinion or criticism, prone to group-think, quick to attack the motives of their detractors, and often incapable of putting together a coherent sentence, much less a paragraph.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:31 pm
@54 Well said. I remember being a platoon commander in a communications company when we received a new Company 1stSgt. He had been an MP prior to making E-8 and needless to say, he didn’t have the first clue about the jobs of the Marines in the company. He immediately set about doing the things he felt the company needed such as repainting the interior of the comm warehouse, washing the fleet of vehicles, painting new lines/signs in the company parking lot, uniform inspections, barracks inspections, etc. Granted, some of those were needed but it seemed to be his sole focus.
Being the H&S Comm Company for 3d FSSG (later CLR-37, 3d MLG), we supported the operations for virtually everything going on in the Pacific. At any given time, at least half our company was gone on a deployment or exercise. Those that weren’t spent that time repairing equipment, learning the ever-changing new equipment, etc. He completely derailed the training programs and the time we needed gearing up for future deployments. I spent half my time keeping my Marines away from him simply so that they could focus on the mission at hand. Having been prior-enlisted and therefore in the Corps a lot longer than the other platoon commanders, I had an easier time “handling” the 1stSgt. I was often amazed at how many stupid working parties the Marines in the other platoons did compared to mine. Even the company Comm Chiefs (1 Master Guns and 3 Master Sgts) and Warrant Officers could often be seen just shaking their heads…and it all stemmed from the 1stSgt not understanding the Comm world. Unfortunately, I ended up deploying to Iraq as an Individual Augment and the lieutenant who replaced me wasn’t as savvy.
Fast forward two years. After getting back from Iraq I was assigned as the Regiment S-6 (I’ll save the Regiment SgtMaj story for another time). Upon pinning on Captain, I get reassigned back to the same company but this time as the Operations Officer. The 1stSgt’s tour was ending as I got assigned to the company and we had a new one checking in. I have to say though, the new 1stSgt was completely different. He wasn’t Comm either though; he had previously been in Supply. His focus was on the Marines themselves. Before each deployment he would meet with the Marines deploying, make sure all their info was current, ensure they had mailing addresses to give to their spouses, made sure their spouses had his phone number and other info incase any problem happened while the deployment was going on. He setup a mentoring program for the new Corporals, teaching them what it meant to be an NCO. He did this and much more.
I’ve seen my share of both good and bad E-8/E-9’s and these are just a couple examples. I really do think it’s all in the approach.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
Marine Corps doesn’t have this problem. Well, at least the grunt units don’t. Whenever you saw the battalion SGTMAJ you knew you were going to get a oorah Marine. Our SGTMAJ usually hooked us up with stuff instead of making us do dumb things.
December 28th, 2012 at 3:51 pm
I shouldn’t make so much fun, really. We had guys like Purdy or Kelso doing their time outside of the Ranger Batts, both Ranger Hall of Famers,, who woke up in the morning caring about the training and well-being of their soldiers. Still, I don’t think they demonstrate the value of the SMA, as everything they learned about NCO leadership was an extension of their career experiences.
December 28th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
@65: Hence my comment in #13 above. I can’t speak for the combat-arms types but as a senior noncom in a combat support MOS, I learned virtually nothing of value from the classroom sessions in BNCOC or ANCOC.
Which is not to say that the courses weren’t valuable – there’s a lot to be said for professional networking, as in “here’s how we did it in my unit.” That kind of professional exchange is valuable in any organization.
But the classroom portions were simply a re-hash of what we’d already learned at AIT for the most part (and which was rarely practiced once we were out in our units anyway.)
Honestly I think the whole NCOES system has become so institutionalized that there is an assumption of added value even when there’s no actual proof that value has been added.
Think about this: Have you ever heard someone say “you can’t put that person in charge of the platoon, he hasn’t been to ANCOC yet?” Or conversely, have you ever heard someone say “well, now that SSG X has been to BNCOC, we can assign him a lot of duties that we couldn’t assign to him before?”
I’ve never heard either of those things – people were assigned to certain duties based on whether they knew what they were doing and could accomplish the task – whether they had been to a certain NCOES school was not a concern. In fact, the primary purpose of NCOES schools seemed to be qualifying people for promotion. You couldn’t promote X to SSG until he finished BNCOC, so that was the reason to send him to BNCOC. Whether or not he learned anything valuable didn’t seem to matter.
December 28th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
No system is going to be perfect. Were the CSM folowing orders to get and keep the Unit in shape. If you are not in the meetings it is hard to know what they were told to do. I have had my fair share of orders that I was not to happy to carry out, but I did. On the other hand, how much did they fight those orders, fight for their troops. I was never going to make MCPO, I was saddened only because I knew what a great opportunity it would have been to make an even larger positive impact on young leaders coming up thru the ranks. What an Honor and Privilage that position is, I hope all would see it that way. Do not cry for me Argentina, Senior Chief was pretty dam good. Love it.
December 28th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
It’s important to note, among all this discussion, that a lot of times senior NCOs aren’t counseled as to what exactly their job is by the commander. Without guidance people tend to make their own, and what else are they gonna do then to copy what THEY saw the guys before them do, who also received little to no guidance.
Do we make up jobs for senior NCOs? Hell yeah. Senior officers too though.
It’s interesting to me to see how many E-7s that have had no initial counseling to this point in their career. Yes it’s a problem in the NCO corps, but it’s also a problem of us RLOs not doing our job and instead just assuming that all those rockers means the guy is squared away. As we well know, rank in the military generally only demonstrates one fact: that guy joined before you.
All that being said, if you look at your job and can’t honestly say you are a value adder, then get the F out of the way and let the rest of us work.
December 28th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
@67: After I became a senior NCO I got to sit in on a lot of those meetings and was frankly astonished at the level of chickenshit that emanated from the CSMs themselves. In fact, it was the CSMs, much more than the officers, who insisted on strict enforcement of pointless and picayune rules that served no purpose.
Two more examples just popped into my mind: Camp Arifjan, in southern Kuwait, was miserable in the mid-summer of 2004. The Sunni insurgency in Iraq had kicked off big time in April and May and units that were scheduled to rotate out were being kept in-theater for another 3 months. Some units of the 1st Armored Division had redeployed to Germany already after a 12 month tour in-country and were turned back and sent back into Iraq for another few months.
Anyone who’s ever been to that part of the world knows how awful it can be even when there’s not a war on. The daytime temps could get as high as 125f and not all the tents were air conditioned (though most were.) The wind blew all the time and coated everything – inside and out – with a fine coat of dust. To top it off, being right next to the Arabian Gulf, it was extremely humid.
So, in that environment, soldiers do what they can to enhance their morale. One thing a lot of them at Arifjan and its satellite camps (Arlingon, Camden and Truckville) was to fly flags. The flag of their home state (there were a lot of National Guardsmen and Reservists deployed at that time), the flag of their college or football team, whatever. Flags everywhere.
Well, when ARCENT moved from Camp Doha to Arifjan, the ARCENT Forward CSM (BTW, the same one who presided over “Ethnics training”) decided that all the flags just looked unmilitary and must go. So he put out the order: All flags were to come down immediately. Each camp got ONE flagpole, at the camp mayor’s cell, to fly a US and Kuwait flag. That was the ONLY flag that would be permitted to fly.
The CSM then drove around in his nice, air conditioned Yukon to make sure his no-flag order was obeyed, and rained holy hell on anyone who didn’t get the word or who still flew a flag.
Now think about that for a minute – you are deployed to a desert shithole, living in a drafty bedouin tent, covered with dust, and your job is to drive in and out of Iraq dodging IEDs and suffering through triple-digit temps (I guess I should point out that at night it would cool off – to about 104 degrees.) You try to do what you can to make this place just a little more “homey” and then some CSM, who lives in a brand new air conditioned building with a private latrine, wants to tear you a new one because you have a “Crimson Tide” flag hanging from your tent flap? And no, no officer told him to do this, he came up with this plan on his own. Why? Because he could. Not because it served any useful purpose other than to gratify his own ego.
A month or two later, same CSM, has a meeting with all the senior NCOs on Arifjan. Topic for discussion was eye protection. CSM was greatly offended by the number of un-military looking sunglasses that troops were wearing. So he starts to put out an order that only certain sunglasses can be worn in uniform (and it’s a very limited list.)
Fortunately, before he finishes, the ARCENT commander (who would sometimes sit in on these meetings) stops him, countermands the order and says “Just make sure everyone is wearing eye protection. I don’t care what it looks like, it just has to protect their eyes.”
It’s not the first time I’ve ever seen an officer rein in an overzealous CSM, either.
December 28th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
It’s nice to see how the other halves live!?:) I, like a few of you, have no “bad” SgtMaj. stories! Since I spent my entire single three year tour with 3rd Amtracs, I only dealt with one SgtMaj. SgtMaj. Meza was the bomb! Once a month he got together with the Bn’s Jr NCOs for a bitch session and did the same with the Bn staff NCOs. No topic was off limits and any gripes or concerns were looked into. If it was legit, SgtMaj. Meza did something about it. If it wasn’t legit he’d put a size 12 ‘wide’ up your poop chute!? Being a “shiny brown face” like him, he took care of me on the one hand but was a bit harder on me than other NCO’s. I cried at his funeral.
December 28th, 2012 at 7:27 pm
Mostly its the CSMs that are concerned with chickenshit. The SGMS I worked with were uniformly top of the line, put up with no bullshit from staff officer pukes and kept things humming.
martinjmpr: I was there in Truckville at the MP Village in May of 2003 and it was the CSMs that had lost their minds. They wanted us MPs to form Fashion Police patrols, like we weren’t getting ready to go up country and had better things to train on.
It ended when we moved up to Karbala under the 3/7 Marines, where E-9s haven’t had their brains removed. When we eventually got to Abu Ghuraib, and some active duty Intell E-9s got on ground, the stupidity returned.
You need to get rid of the chickenshit CSM games.
December 28th, 2012 at 7:53 pm
Army Sergeant Majors are not useless, they are less than useless. They take up O2 and food and just make life hard for working soldiers. In Bosnia (SFOR 14) we were down to 1,200 soldiers…but we had 9 fucking Sergeant Majors…who bumped into each other trying to fuck with the troops. One was actaully sent back to SGM school while on the books in Bosnia- so his pay was tax free!
December 28th, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Don’t even get me started on the reflective belts.
What are we, the Special Olympics?
I served with many fine E-8 and E-9s.
I’ve also served with the illiterate, incompetent ones, even if they were well meaning.
I carried the Companies training as an E-5, trailing a big dumb happy 300 PT score E-8 behind me to sign what I wasn’t authorized to sign. He had a college degree too, but my GED carrying ass was the one who got the job done right.
With few exceptions, the ones I ran into in Iraq didn’t really impress me. Few and far between were there any that were there to listen to the troops and help them. They mostly wanted to power-trip and do relfector belt/uniform violation chickenshit in what was at the time one of the most atttacked place in Iraq.
But the ones that were good, were like finding Gold.
Don’t go denying that there is something seriously wrong with the Senior NCO corps. You need to do a better job of purging the idiots.
December 28th, 2012 at 8:35 pm
About 25 or so years ago I was a middling senior captain on my second company command, a mech battalion HHC (371 mo-fos, counting me and the CSM but not the colonel). My first sergeant who, interestingly enough, had been cadre on the mortar square at Fort Polk when I was going through mortar AIT, was departing to become CSM of a different battalion, 3/19 Inf. I asked him, “Whatcha gonna do as a CSM, Top?” Answer: “A helluva lot more than check police call and haircuts, sir.”
Six months or so later I asked him, “So whatcha been doing as a CSM, Top.” Answer, given with disgust: “Checked police call and haircuts.”
Is that the fault of CSMs? Hell no. Blame the officer corps for silly wastes of talent like that.
That said, my battalion CSM for that tour and during my previous command was a guy named Joshua MacIntosh. Tall ugly black dude from the US Virgin Islands. He was senior CSM on Fort Stewart yet refused both division and brigade CSM slots. In his opinion there was zero value in having a CSM above battalion or outside of his own branch (which happened way too often and may still. Dunno).
Mac was miserable in garrison, but loved the field and loved training troops. I recall our first professional interaction, when I was a rifle company commander. He came out to the field, reported in, dismissed his driver, then jumped in the back of a track with one of my squads. He stayed with us for 10 days, switching to a new squad every day. Every day he was training, coaching, amd mentoring my squad leaders. I had a better company at the end, too, for his efforts.
He was the best CSM I have ever seen in my life and I stand with his opinion: there is no value, or there is negative value, in having CSMs out of their own branch or above battalion level. If there is talent there, it’s a waste of talent. If there is no talent, they shouldn’t be CSMs.
December 28th, 2012 at 8:44 pm
I have been on Brigade Staff over 2 years now. Our Brigade CSM was my BN CSM when I was a BN S3. Great BN CSM.
At Brigade? His ONLY real responsibility…that he gets held feet-to-the-fire for is tracking NCOERs
He has had enough and is retiring. Same with me. 352 days and counting.
December 28th, 2012 at 10:26 pm
I think #65 got it right. I worked for (only) a couple of great CSMsover the years. They didn’t learn to be great leaders at the SMA, I suspect their values were formed through years of service and from mentoring from other leaders – with some NCOES sprinkled in. If you’re a poor leader being promoted to CSM/SGM, school is not going to help.
December 28th, 2012 at 11:42 pm
I concur with #76. Most of the CSM/SGMs I worked with over the years were underemployed and worked at making life for the troops a living hell. Most were training/mission distractors rather than enhancers. They also stay on the job way too long, going from one ego enhancing fluff job to another.The CSM we had in Afghanistan in 2004 is still a CSM. He should have retired a long time ago. And don’t get me started on CSM Teresa “No Slack” King. Just how in the hell did she get a plum assignment as the Commandant of Drill Sergeant School and have zero deployments under her belt when this nation has been at war for 11 plus years?
December 29th, 2012 at 6:20 am
Don’t forget the “Change of Responsibility ceremony”. What total bullshit and a complete waste of time.
December 29th, 2012 at 9:28 am
There was a Sergeant Major in an armor unit in our brigade in Desert Storm who was awarded a Bronze Star w/V because while he was following his tanks in his Hummer, he saw an Iraqi tank, ordered his driver to stop, bounded up on the tank and fired his 9mm into the open hatch. No one checked to see if he killed anyone, or if there was even anyone in the tank. Odds are, that after a battalion of M1s had passed the tank, it was unoccupied. But, regardless, the CSM got a BSw/V for taking out a tank with a pistol. Don’t believe me? It’s in Tom Clancy’s poorly researched book, “Into The Storm”.
December 29th, 2012 at 11:05 am
Well folks, take great comfort. Although there is probably a snowball’s chance in hell that the Army will get rid of either the Academy or the E-9 rank structure, there is good news. Most of you will no longer have to suffer any more from any of the holdouts from McNamara’s 100,000 as Sergeant Majors any more. Just about all of them should be retired by now. I had to endure not only one, but three of these wonders in my career.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
December 29th, 2012 at 11:46 pm
When our new CSM took over at BN (just having been my company’s 1SG), I took an informal poll at the company and found only about 20% could even NAME our previous BN CSM, a former 42A whose only concern in life was properly formatted NCOERs. He’d been there for two or three years, and obviously made a big splash.
December 30th, 2012 at 12:36 am
Yeah, well, the Master Chief Mafia is alive and well in far too many places. My last Chief Recruiter couldn’t lead a bunch of guys who’d been on a 90-day op into a PI bar even if he had a fist full of pesos.
Guy had cut a 29 AFQT when he came in and he was PROUD of it. And it SHOWED.
December 30th, 2012 at 1:14 am
John, Speaking of Bronze Stars and Sgt Majors, a similar thing happened in a Marine Arty Bn in Desert Storm. He shot up an empty BMP with a MK 19, with no active hostiles within 2 klicks. Not to be outdone, the Bn CO got a Silver Star for calling in airstrikes on a fig orchard 2 miles away that had a couple of Iraqi vehicles 3 camels and a one-eyed donkey in it. To put the icing on the cake he and the Sgt Major were the ones who wrote each other up for the awards.
About a year after that debacle I attended DI with a Sgt from the grunts who had jumped into a trench of Iraqi die-hards and bayoneted a few of them making another 15 give up. He got a Navy Commendation Medal with a Combat V.
December 30th, 2012 at 2:41 pm
The consensus seems to be that quite a few folks became disillusioned about the military, and understandably so, as the senior enlisted ranks could use an overdue purging – and rid itself of the self-serving, political hacks who lost vision of why they wear several hash-marks on their shoulder. I’ve reminded a few SgtMajs that their promotion warrant contains the word APPOINTED, not ANNOINTED.
December 30th, 2012 at 3:02 pm
My GOD, there are a lot of stories about this rank. If I may, let me chime in with a couple.
When cell phones became affordable and more and more Soldiers had them, I wondered one day what “Battalion policy” might be on Soldiers using them in uniform. To me, walking down the street yacking away looked unprofessional. You need to talk, stop and talk. Talking and walking offered a very real chance of disrespecting an officer by not saluting. That was until I saw the CSM walking down the sidewalk talking on his cell phone AND smoking a cigarette. Question answered.
In OIF1 the CSM for my supported Battalion (1/68 Armor) was a peach. I remembered him hacking on a Corporal for wearing a 173rd patch he’d earned after being attached to them. He was telling the Corporal that we were in 4th ID and that if he wanted to wear a combat patch that was what he would wear. Of course, the CSM was wearing a 3rd ACR combat patch at the time. The next day it was 1st Armor. The day after that it was 18th ABN. I immediately had my 82nd ABN sewn on and salivated at the prospect of him trying to dress me down.
He was the guy who had a STABO rig on his LBV. He had a red laser pointer for his M4. Remember we were an armored Battalion. He never left the wire except for those operations so large in scope the Commander made him. He had two emergency leaves during our year. Both were extended. One was for his father, the other his biological step father. Yes, run that one through your head again.
The last great CSM I had was Robert MacKenzie when I was in the 82nd (1981-1983). Gutsy, gravelly, hard charging. Demanded excellence in the field, not in garrison.
So I agree. There could be some big savings by culling the herd of this rank.
December 30th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
There was a great series of books written in the early 80′s called “Green Side Out” by a retired Mustang with his Friend A retired Warrant Officer. I believe Gene Duncan was the writer’s name. It had a bunch of funny sea stories from the 50′s through the 70′s but there was a lot of great info too.
He mentioned how the Marine SNCO ranks had sharply lost professionalism and ability due to an abundance of field promotions to Officer (which took the very best)unpopularity of Vietnam and Project 100,000 which filled the military with less then intelligent beings, many who stuck around and got promoted by default.
In my first enlistment I had 10 SNCOs in my unit at one time or another, all of them Vietnam Era Vets. Two of them were the epitome of what a Marine SNCO should be. The other eight were either fat, drunk or stupid, or all of the above. Once I was in a position where I could have an effect on personnel I reflected on this guys. If any Of the 8 had checked into my unit I would have immediately shit-canned 6 of them and given the other two a come to jesus talk.
December 31st, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Last time I was in Baghdad, received several emails from my BN CSM at home unit (I am NG) just asking a basic “What’s up? How is everything going?” Basic soldier care stuff. This last time in Kandahar, received nothing from my entire command back home from Platoon Sergeant/Leader on up. Not like there were a lot of us (3) deployed out from the battalion. Just goes to show the difference between an NCO that remembers how to be an NCO and what is coming down the pike nowadays…they teach all kind of crap at NCOES, but seem to forget the most important stuff.
December 31st, 2012 at 12:26 pm
Dammit, that was me.
January 1st, 2013 at 5:08 pm
My Ops SGM is a bit of a brute. Every time I interact with him I get the impression he’d rather communicate physically than verbally. He’s not exactly the communicative type.
I also have a MSG over me. While the SGM was away on business a while back, this guy decided to enroll himself in some training (to help pad his resume) and take himself out of the loop for two weeks. A SFC had to answer for a few dropped taskings that the MSG should have covered down on as acting OPS SGM. A brigade S3-shop has those senior enlisted for a reason; I can’t fault a SGM for going TDY, but I damn sure can fault a self-serving MSG for taking a course that is designed for mid-level NCOs and junior officers.
Personally, and usually professionally, I have no qualms with my leadership. But sometimes rank seems to blind them to reality. Just a few weeks ago I was told I’d be getting interviewed to become a CSM’s driver. With a much-anticipated deployment around the corner, the leaders who are supposed to take care of Soldiers under them decided to send a careerist Staff Sergeant with over 100 months of dwell time who is getting reviewed for QSP to do a job usually reserved for a junior Sergeant. They left it to the SFC in immediate charge of me to relay the message, at which point I made it clear that such a tasking would effectively dead-end my career. Fortunately, he gave me the tasking order, which no one had bother to read past the first page. It clearly stated that the interviewees had to be in the rank of Sergeant. Those few minutes of “wtf?” on my part could have been saved if someone above me had read the coordinating instructions.
I’ve had some fairly squared away CSMs, and have always had good rapport with them, but have had a few moments where I realized how far from reality it is possible to get in that position. My theory is that when a group of E-9s are together it is only a matter of time before one or more starts getting stupid. Someone always feels the need to justify their paygrade.