Guns in Utah
If guns are your issue, Utah might be the place to live if the links that David sent us this morning are to be believed.
A homeowner arrived at his home to discover a man with a prybar at his door and a woman in his driveway honking the horn on her car frantically to warn prybar guy;
“He saw a male exit the home, he had some type of pry-bar in his hand. The homeowner then returned to his car and retrieved a handgun from his car and two rounds were fired before officers arrived. We’re still investigating where the rounds were fired,” said Layton Police Lt. Shawn Horton.
The male suspect, identified as 43-year-old Robert Santos Cruz, tried running from the house as officers arrived, but he was caught a short time later.
Meanwhile, Utah’s sheriffs have sent a letter to President Obama warning him that they won’t violate Second Amendment protection in their counties – well, 28 of 29 counties, anyway;
Part of the letter reads, “No federal official will be permitted to descend upon our constituents and take from them what the Bill of Rights—in particular Amendment II—has given them.”
Summit County Sheriff Dave Edmunds, the head of the Utah Sheriffs’ Association, says the letter is just a preemptive warning saying that if anything unconstitutional is passed, local authorities will not enforce it.
Edmunds says that he doesn’t object to anything proposed by the Obama Administration already.
“We thought it prudent from our position knowing full well what the manifest intent of that administration is and they’re being very clear about it, they want gun regulation in this country and they want it to be more widespread,” Edmunds said.
And there’s murmurs in the legislature to loosen gun laws in the state;
Rep. John Mathis, R-Vernal, is proposing legislation that says that if you can legally own a gun you can legally carry it, whether it’s open or concealed.
But Curtis Haring of Utah Political Capitol disagrees; he says Utah’s concealed carry permit system is fine.
“We want to make sure we have reasonable set of gun laws, much like the status quo,” Haring said. “Do we want to be seen as a state where just anybody can walk around with a gun at any time?”
Oh, scary – gun owners just walking around with guns. I guess because we only buy guns to hang on our wall for show when we’re not out hunting. As one legislator said; “The mere fact that you’re legally carrying a gun does not constitute disorderly conduct.”
February 1st, 2013 at 11:57 am
According to the Brady Campaign, Arizona, Utah, and Alaska are the great places to live if you want uninhibited access to exercise your 2A rights. These three states all scored a 0 out 100 on the Brady scorecard. All three of these states have less violent crime than the three highest rated: California (81) and New Jersey(72), and New York (62).
February 1st, 2013 at 12:02 pm
One thing I forgot to mention in that email is that the first story is making the top fold, front page of the local paper. Actually the first time I’ve done more than glance at the local rags
February 1st, 2013 at 12:13 pm
Knowing that my State got a 0 from the Brady Campaign brings a smile to my face. Pretty much everybody carries and nobody gets shot. I believe that the only places you can’t carry is Government buildings and buisnesses whose primary service is alcohol. I think our most prolific crime is moose poaching.
February 1st, 2013 at 12:16 pm
Why isn’t Wyoming on that Brady list?
February 1st, 2013 at 12:32 pm
Let’s see… a state where just anybody can walk around with a gun at any time is better and less likely for criminal behavior than a state where just the criminals can walk around with a gun at any time.
February 1st, 2013 at 12:32 pm
They are, Ex-PH2: they got a score of 4.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/stateleg/scorecard/2011/2011_Brady_Campaign_State_Scorecard_Rankings.pdf
February 1st, 2013 at 12:39 pm
@#5: “An armed society is a polite society.”
February 1st, 2013 at 12:55 pm
My state got a 7, but we are working on lowering the score.
Open carry has been legal here forever.
February 1st, 2013 at 12:56 pm
If I were King for a day, I would prohibit “Gun Free Zones” unless the zone was a designated, secure area with a metal detector, armed guard and lockboxes for legal gun owners to store their weapons, and no VIP entrance. Everywhere else a legal gun owner can carry Period end of discussion
February 1st, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Hmmm…I guess I’m liking Mormonism more every day. Of course living here in Massachusetts any state west of New York looks better with respect to personal freedoms…
February 1st, 2013 at 1:22 pm
Thanks, Hondo.
So 1 through 4 is best? Land is cheap in Wyoming and in Texas. I know in Jackson Hole, WY, if some cowboy or ranch owner drives into town with a gun in a leg holster and gets out of his truck, the yuppies visiting there to do bar-skiing have panic attacks and call the sheriff and tell him there’s a ‘man with a gun’ on the street.
I would love to live some place like that. I would enjoy yanking their gold chains.
February 1st, 2013 at 1:42 pm
Madison thought they’d try the disorderly conduct thing. They ended up settling the lawsuit. haha
February 1st, 2013 at 1:43 pm
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check
February 1st, 2013 at 1:47 pm
I just realized Wisonsin has a grade of 3. Right next door, and it’s pretty, too.
February 1st, 2013 at 1:58 pm
Oklahoma scores a 2, OOOrah. our land is skyrocketing,Texans buying hunting land and Okies returning from Cali with obsere amounts of money from selling their homes. Joe
February 1st, 2013 at 2:06 pm
Joe,
http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf
February 1st, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Damn joe Mother Jones as a scource? The Brithish and Aussies started with just a database too. What followed the databases?How come England is ranked with S.Arfica for volient crimes ?Please check John Lott’s work of more guns less crimes.
February 1st, 2013 at 2:15 pm
Raise your hand if you knew Joey was gonna show up with a link that has been thoroughly refuted over the last few weeks by pretty much everyone who can read data has provided! Of course, Joey lives in a fantasy land all his own.
February 1st, 2013 at 2:23 pm
Guys, guys, be nice. After all, it’s painful when sources like Mother Jones consistently get curbstomped harder than someone who matches a description with LAPD.
February 1st, 2013 at 2:33 pm
NR Pax: you won’t hear from Comrade Joseph again on this one, amigo. He does a “cut and run” just as soon as he’s confronted with hard data that contradicts his bogus talking points.
Had a chance to do a bit of playing around with the 2011 Brady Score (PS) data from the Brady Bunch (see URL in comment 6). Here’s a few curious things I found – remember, scale is 0-100:
Average BS, West of MS River, Excluding AK/HI (22 states): 8.86
Average BS, West of MS River, Excluding AK/HI/CA (21 states): 5.43
(Yes, CA really does have a BS high enough to raise a 21 state average by 3.4+ when it’s added to the group; it’s 66 points higher than the next highest states – CO/WA/OR – in the group.)
Average BS, West of Appalachians, Excluding AK/HI/CA (30 states): 6.86
Average BS, West of Appalachians, Excluding AK/HI/CA/IL/MI (28 states): 5.21
Average BS, West of Appalachians, Excluding AK/HI/CA/IL/MI, Plus the South (34 states): 6.09
Average BS, Outside the US Northeast (US Northeast: states N of VA and E of OH), plus VT/NH/ME/DE/AK (39 states): 6.13
Average BS, MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, MD, CA, HI, IL, MI, PA (11 states): 51.18
Yeah, based on current laws it looks like the US is REALLY in favor of strict gun control.
February 1st, 2013 at 2:34 pm
Quoting Mother Jones is like quoting the “news media” in Dayton. Intresting read which shows that most all of the “news” sites are biased.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8759
February 1st, 2013 at 3:10 pm
I don’t compile the statistics and neither do you.Just injecting an alternate point of view into this echo chamber.
February 1st, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Joe: weak, clueless Vietnam draft-avoider. But I did do a bit of analysis regarding BS (AKA “Brady Scores”) above. Care to respond to that analysis vice trying to fluff off the fact that it contradicts much of what you’ve said in the past concerning this issue?
February 1st, 2013 at 3:16 pm
No, Joe, you’re trying to interject false statistics to bolster your own twisted viewpoint.
February 1st, 2013 at 3:39 pm
“…false statistics…” Do tell.
February 1st, 2013 at 3:40 pm
And Hondao, I’m proud of resisting the war in Viet Nam, which as its architects now admint, was the biggest cluster up to and including Iraq.
February 1st, 2013 at 3:42 pm
Unfortunately, my beloved Colorado is getting bluer every year, thanks to the influx of people from the left coasts. Our score is a disappointing 15.
I’ve said many times that I’m moving to Wyoming. The spirit of the West still lives there, it’s dead here.
February 1st, 2013 at 3:48 pm
Joe: you didn’t “resist the war”, dipstick. I have a grudging respect for those who actually did and went to jail or left the country. At least they had the guts to put their ass on the line for a cause they believed in. I can’t agree with them or condone what they did – but I can respect their guts. They actually “walked the walk”.
However, you didn’t have the balls to do that. What you did was stand by, fat dumb and lazy, until you knew your draft lottery number was high enough you weren’t going to get drafted. Then you stood back and let others do the dirty work on your behalf while you stayed at home, safe and comfortable.
How does it feel to be a free rider, “Comrade”? What would your hero Marx say about those who feed of the labor and efforts of others without producing anything themselves?
February 1st, 2013 at 3:58 pm
HAHAHA imagine that. A Libtard draft dodger coward that wants everyone to be as cowardly as he is, so he doesn’t fell like a shitbag.
Joe, you’ll forever be a shitbag regardless of how many people you wish to unarm.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:14 pm
That’s OK, I figure if this crowd feels the need to berate me, I must be doing something right.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:25 pm
Hmmm. My apologies Hondo, I guess that tear gas I got sprayed with on the march on Washington DC in what, 1971, was a figment. That, and all the other proests.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:32 pm
And what consequences other than that did you face? Seriously, Joe – you cannot compare being tear-gassed while protesting unlawfully with fighting in a war, leaving your country, or going to prison. That’s laughable.
What was the worst that was going to happen – you might not get to cruise on down to the “love in” that weekend? You might have to blow your hemp money on bail?
If that’s your best comeback, you’re . . . sad. A sad, pathetic man.
Perhaps you read Prufrock once too often while you were young.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:32 pm
Comrade Joey, while you were out “protesting”(giving aid and comfort to NV), you and those like you were responsible for a lot of the names on the wall. You and yours encouraged the North Vietnamese to continue a war that even they thought they’d lost. So, do let us know where you plan on being buried, that would be another grave I’d stand in line to piss on.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:39 pm
I didn’t compare serving in viet nam to protesting against the war – you did that. On your planet, previously people who fled the draft to Canada were deserters and traitors, but now all of a sudden they are conveniently paragons of integrity (compared to me,apparently). Inconsistent doesn’t begin to desribe your tortured state of mind.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:46 pm
Joe: once again, your reading comprehension deserts you.
I said I had a grudging respect for them – not that they were paragons of virtue. I still think they failed horribly at being a good citizen. However, I can still respect the guts of someone who chooses to put their ass on the line for what they believe – even if I think they’re a misguided fool in doing so.
You didn’t do that. You also didn’t serve. Instead, you “copped out”, taking the safe path of least resistance. You stood by and let others on both sides do the dirty work while you stayed home safe and comfy.
And be real: you know damn well you were at the May Day protests in 1971 as much for the music, sex, and drugs as to protest the war.
And geez: it’s either “Vietnam” or “Viet Nam” (the former is the generally-accepted spelling). It’s the name of a freaking country and hence a proper noun. Try capitalizing it.
February 1st, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Just about every time Joe posts I wish that the stereotype of the older generations not being able to set a VCR clock, let alone access the internet, was true.
February 1st, 2013 at 5:34 pm
The gentleman in the above story has been arrested and charged with 2 misdemeanour’s.
February 1st, 2013 at 5:34 pm
“And be real: you know damn well you were at the May Day protests in 1971 as much for the music, sex, and drugs as to protest the war.”
Ever hear of killing two birds with one stone?
February 1st, 2013 at 5:37 pm
Joe, you mentioned all of the other protests. After serving in USMC 63-68, 19 months in RVN, came home and became a Trooper.
Hopefully I thumped your ass on the oval at Ohio State in 1970. You comments sound as if I, or someone else did.
February 1st, 2013 at 5:39 pm
That would be 4 birds, and I would be willing to bet that the last bird was the farthest from your mind at the time.
February 1st, 2013 at 5:40 pm
Joe: yeah. I’ve also heard of of people engaging in rationalization, subterfuge, and feigning interest in political matters in order to get laid. Along with a host of other unethical behaviors.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
February 1st, 2013 at 7:29 pm
Joe, what does mother jones define as a “mass shooting”? Now, tell me how many of those “mass shootings” occurred in Gun Free Zones? There is no way around this one Joe. Facts are facts, no matter how much you hate them.
February 1st, 2013 at 7:45 pm
And another thing about Joe’s mother jones link in #13, they clearly have never heard of Chicago.
One of my buddies who I was in A-stan with our first time around is from Chicago. He’s a very squared away black gentleman who joined the Army at 30 years old, I believe he’s now 33 and just got promoted to SGT and is on his second go around in A-stan. He is absolutely livid at what he considers a blatant double standard and even thinly veiled racism at the fact that 20 upper middle class white kids get killed and its a national tragedy, but in his home city of Chicago there have already been at least 44 murders this year alone, most of them inner city school aged Hispanic and black kids and…..crickets. He’s got a point. Nobody cares about poor black kids in Chicago. And mother jones has the sheer balls to suggest that states and cities with the tightest guns laws have the lowest murder rates. What this should tell us is that most gun grabbing Libtards are closet racists. Its ok to ignore the murders of inner city black and Hispanic kids, but when the upper middle class white kids are killed the country goes into lock down because now we have to DO SOMETHING!
People like Joe make me absolutely sick.
February 1st, 2013 at 7:48 pm
1971? Oh, WHAT a Johnny Come Lately! Get over yourself, you phony clown!
I was living across the street from the Pentagon at Quarters K in Arlington in the fall of 1967 when the hippies showed up and tried to break into the Selective Service files, and were thrown out of the building by the MPs. I could see all that going on from my vantage point. You weren’t even there. I was in DC when Martin Luther King was assasinated a few months after the Tet Offensive. I saw Washington on fire. You didn’t.
Those were the real protests, you bloviating dishwasher.
1971 was the year after the Kent State incident, but you wouldn’t know about that, would you, dicknoddle? No, because you were too busy hiding to even be part of the real protests.
If you were doing anything, you were dealing drugs to anyone who’d cough up a few bucks for a tab of diluted acid. That’s what a useless wannabe you are. Wisha, wisha, wisha, wisha.
You were never there.
February 1st, 2013 at 7:50 pm
@43, Cannoncocker, your friend should be told that because of the increased black-on-black violence, and the shooting death of Hadiya Jones a few days ago, the CPD is pulling 200 police officers off desk jobs and putting them onto the streets.
February 1st, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Here’s the link to the increase:
http://wgntv.com/2013/01/31/200-officer-reassigned-in-response-to-spike-in-chicago-homicides/
February 1st, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Sorry, Hadiya’s last name is Pendleton. My mistake.
February 1st, 2013 at 9:37 pm
And NH got a 6. WTF? Maybe it’s because the Dhimminirats are trying to outlaw carrying in the state house in Concord again.
February 1st, 2013 at 9:49 pm
I guess that tear gas I got sprayed with on the march on Washington DC in what, 1971, was a figment.
Hey, dipshit–I got sprayed with tear gas too. They called it boot camp, and it was a fucking joke. Kinda like you.
And again, what Joey doesn’t want to admit is that “gun deaths” is NOT, repeat NOT, the same as murder by gun. Gun deaths can include such things as suicide, hunting accident, or negligent discharge, but then again, we knew that, didn’t we Joey?
Now go unplug your fucking meter already.
February 2nd, 2013 at 7:45 am
Joe-BOY really tries to make himself out to be some crusader, just like a couple of posers I’ve busted face to face! So which were you after more, the free pot, or getting your picture in the paper?
February 2nd, 2013 at 9:01 am
I’m glad I’ve never been tear gassed!
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:22 am
Jonn…going through the smoke and tear gas trainer was part of the firefighting training in boot for us Navy pukes. The gas and smoke weren’t that bad, and when you threw in the firefighting stuff we did that day, was actually kind of fun. All we needed to do was gas a few hippies and it would have been the perfect day indeed.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:23 am
Jonn: if that includes missing out on exposure in the chamber – you’re lucky. Had a mask leak just a tad once (my own fault, probably – should have checked the fit/seal better before going in). CS is truly nasty stuff. There’s a damn good reason very few stick around after it’s used. (smile)
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:33 am
Hondo…for the gas trainer, we go in wearing masks. Then we had the pleasure of taking them off. Sucked for a few, but it dd serve a valid purpose.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:38 am
In 1971 at NAS Dallas,people like and your mouth had me doing an extra duty I did not want. Squad leader on the Riot Platoon. After 25 months in Vietnam I am put in a position of possibly fighting my own countrymen. During those years,I ran into a lot of you true belivers,all talk and no action. As pointed out we have more respect for the ones who fled or went to jail for their convictions.Do not bring that higher morals in here when you suposely tear gassed on your after you found out you had a high(safe) draft number. Joe
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:39 am
NHSparky: NH got a BS of 6 (yes, use of the acronym is intentional) for the following:
- State license required for firearms dealers (2 pts)
- Employers can ban firearms in parking lots (2 pts)
- Colleges can ban firearms on campuses (2 pts)
I can live with the first two (the 2nd Amendment applies to government actions, not employer policies). The third I find problematic, as by state law it creates an announced “gun free zone” at any college in the state. “Gun free zones” are nothing but publicly-identified soft targets.
Full BS criteria and state breakdown is found at
http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/stateleg/scorecard/2011/2011_scoring_system.pdf
I thought that was the link I had posted in comment 6 above, but I apparently posted the link to the summary table by mistake. My bad.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:52 am
@25: Joe; go look at the FBI statistics. You’ll notice that the premise stated in the Mother Jones “facts” is that most of them are from “surveys” or from the CDC, Pediatricians, and the UN, rather than actual data compiled by law enforcement. They searched far and wide in order to find anything they could glom onto to support their anti-gun agenda, yet, when compared with actual data, they fall flatter than piss on a plate. You know this. You have had those same talking points refuted with data and facts for over a month, yet you still want to try and serve it up, again. The only “myth” is that Mother Jones has any facts at all about anything.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:58 am
@31: You pussy. Every member of the military gets to taste CS (tear gas) as part of their training. Don’t act like you are some sort of brave warrior when you think that getting a little tear gas for being a douche somehow is worse than anything above training level in the military.
February 2nd, 2013 at 11:06 am
NHSparky, Old Trooper: Army training got spotty on that for a while in the late 1970s-mid 1980s. I don’t remember ever being required to take the mask off in the chamber during training. (I think we had a couple of troops who had a serious reaction and local leadership just didn’t want to risk the political fallout from another one. Might have only been the units/posts where I was stationed, though.)
Based on my experience with minor leakage, full exposure would have been “no fun whatsoever”. A minor leak was enough to let me know I didn’t want to mess with Mr. CS. (smile)
February 2nd, 2013 at 11:24 am
#59 Hondo–I had to do the full mask confidence exercise in 1980 at BT on Ft. Leonard Wood, then again four years later in the officer’s basic course.
They didn’t seem to have any reservation whatsoever to CSing us during home station training or NTC rotations all through the late 80s and early 90s, either.
The banana oil test was much more pleasant.
February 2nd, 2013 at 11:33 am
@59: Hondo, in October of 1981, it sure was employed. Go in the door, stand in line, get to the front of the line in front of a DI and then you had to take your mask off and recite your name, SSN, and unit before they would let you out the door. Then, you had to run around with your arms waving while snot ran out of your nose uncontrollably and tears ran out of your eyes like a waterfall…………..good times, good times.
February 2nd, 2013 at 11:45 am
Never spray a bear when you’re downwind of the bear in a strong breeze.
February 2nd, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Um, I was being facetious. Joe is talking to a crowd of people who have all been gassed. In fact, I used to go in the gas chamber with my cadets without my mask – still yelling. My point was that if getting gassed was the least comfortable Joe has ever been, he’s a fairly lucky guy.
February 2nd, 2013 at 1:06 pm
OT, VI: as I said, it might just have been the Posts/installations at which I was stationed during the time. But we apparently had folks running the show who decided to cut some slack.
Bad decision IMO. If someone’s going to have a reaction, you want to know that in training and not in a field or operational situation. And based on the minor leak I had once, that demo would indeed drive home the point that a properly fitted and sealed mask really does work.
Dunno if I agree with the running around the chamber part, though. That seems considerably more than necessary to get the point across. Reciting one’s SSN was what the older guys told us to expect. Many of them also admitted they never got past the 4th digit or so. (smile)
February 2nd, 2013 at 1:07 pm
OK, Jonn – didn’t pick up on that. Mea culpa. (smile)
And I agree. I can think of many worse things I’ve experienced, even if I didn’t get the “full dose”. Joe’s damn lucky if getting a whiff of CS was the worst thing he’s ever experienced.
February 2nd, 2013 at 4:34 pm
@63+1 @61+1 in Ft Leonard Wood, 1970. One of our DIs stood in the gas chamber for 2 hours – he was immune. If I had not seen it I would not believe it.
Is it possible that our Joe has no frame of reference? Perhaps he hasn’t been to a 3rd world country — like Juarez Mexico? If that were the case, then he might think that being tear gassed in 1971 was pretty bad.
Hey Joe, look up Cambodia on Wiki. Read the section titled, “Khmer Rouge regime” then come back and tell us again how bad it was to be tear-gassed. For those who don’t know, the Cambodian government emptied their cities and killed about 2 million of their own people, about one quarter of their population. At the time, Joe marched to allow the NVA into Cambodia. Way to go Joe.
Back to Utah, look up the history of the Mormons as they moved from New York to Salt Lake. Self defense is a core LDS belief because it was necessary.
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