Lady SEALs

| February 12, 2013

Stu sends us a link to an article by Darlene M Iskra at Time’s Battleland in which poor little Darlene has confused actual reality with Hollywood’s reality. Reading the article about the possibility of allowing women in the ranks of the Navy’s SEALs, you can almost hear Darlene creaming all over herself. She also includes an image of a shorn Demi Moore in her role as “GI Jane” as well as a video clip from the movie.

I believe that is an accurate depiction of what any woman who tries this will have to endure. It is not for the weak of heart. As I stated in my December 21 post, now we just have to wait for the right women to volunteer and put themselves on the line.

As reactions to my previous posts have shown, there is a remarkable resistance by men to any change in personnel policy.

Yeah, well, i think it’s a movie, and just because the ACTORS in a MOVIE tried to keep the ACTRESS in a MOVIE from making it in SEAL training in a MOVIE, that doesn’t mean that REAL instructors will do the same. Obviously, Darlene hasn’t met any real SEALs, but that doesn’t stop her from making outrageous claims.

The Navy’s implementation plan is due to the defense secretary by May 15, and the plan for integration of Special Operations not until January 2016. By then I hope that women who desire these assignments will be in training, in preparation for what will be viewed through a microscope by those who want to see them fail.

But ladies: “Don’t give up the ship!”

As in, don’t give it up for lost and abandon it. At least one of you will prevail.

So, why don’t you do it, Darlene, since it’s so important for some reason to all of womanhood? I have no problem with female SEALs who meet the established standard. I couldn’t, even at my best several decades ago, but the problem here is that people who have n intention of taking part in the training are the only ones pushing this shit.

If anything, movies like “GI Jane” only serve to scare women away from these positions, and the media’s treatment of entertainment as reality only perpetuate the toxic myths about people who are currently serving.

Category: Military issues

Comments (53)

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  1. NHSparky says:

    I love how someone who doesn’t even know the PST test requirements just to go from Great Lakes to BUD/S thinks women are going to rock this shit out.

    I think I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of women who can do 10 pull-ups. And that’s just to START BUD/S, honey.

  2. Twist says:

    What, movies aren’t reality? Well there goes my plan on enrolling my kids in Hogwarts next fall.

  3. Ex-PH2 says:

    (Sigh.) I DO wish that people could — just once — stop thinking that movies are the real world. They aren’t.

    I know it’s wishful thinking on my part, but….

    OK, before we start the “not in my patch/turf” stuff, Darlene doesn’t have a clue, the possibility is slim to none, and you all know perfectly well that it’s something you have to qualify for to even get there in the first place. And since Chief Shipley does not open his prep course to women, DOUBTFUL!!!!

  4. Twist says:

    “As reactions to my previous posts have shown, there is a remarkable resistance by men to any change in personnel policy”

    Apparantly she chooses to ignore the resistance by women.

  5. ComancheDoc says:

    It would make an interesting case study if Chief Shipley did have a course with females in it; if for no other reason than to put it out there to refute Hollywood BS.

  6. gunner3_4 says:

    All I see from women is “Well, I could do it, but I just don’t want to”. There is a lot of drum banging, just not actual head on attack by women to do it. I’m just hoping for a handful to attempt an infantry course or something, fall flat on their face and raise the white flag, then head back to their support unit.

  7. NHSparky says:

    Doc–can you imagine a class full of females on the grinder at Coronado, doing a little wake up PT, then hitting the beach to do some surf entry for a few hours?

    Oh, the hilarity.

  8. badandy says:

    Twist that first comment was hilarious.

  9. streetsweeper says:

    I wonder if she was climaxing while she wrote that, clapping her little bitty hands together and all….so overcome with those feel good emotions that she had to stand up and cheer.

  10. Doc Bailey says:

    I have yet to see a woman do a 30 mile ruck with a 45 pound pack, or 15 mile with a 90 pound ruck. Yes SOF teams do those marches all the time. So yeah, it’s not the instructors that will keep them from succeeding, but rather the sheer physical requirements.

    Not that you’ll hear that when females start failing left and right.

  11. The Dead Man says:

    So the movies HAVE been lying to me? There aren’t Aliens on LV-426 or buried under the Antarctic. What’s next, you’re going to tell me that I can’t call the Ghostbusters if my dead uncle decides to come back?

    I’m starting to agree with my old Law Enforcement teacher. Sterilize anyone that fails a basic IQ and Logic test.

  12. ComancheDoc says:

    NHSparky- all the more reason to do it; it’ll show everyone that special warfare isn’t for “special” warriors. I’d love to be the photographer, probably have to hide copies of everything so the PAO doesn’t take them.

  13. Old 21B says:

    “…it only means that occupational standards will be developed and/or tested in billets for which the only previous criterion was being male.”

    So according to her the only requirement, previously, for being a SEAL was being male?

  14. LoriKirk says:

    Imagine even Ronda Rousey would “tap out” of BUDS (though she is simply awesome in the octogon!). A woman CAN and SHOULD be as strong in body, mind, and in will as she possibly can. And there ARE places she can serve extremely effectively (CIA) but men, by the sheer fact of biology, out-perform women in some arenas. A resounding NO! to alteration of standards.

  15. Ex-PH2 says:

    I like this part: By then (2016) I hope that women who desire these assignments will be in training, in preparation for what will be viewed through a microscope by those who want to see them fail.

    Well, Darlene, considering the discomfort involved in the assignments that these people go on — you know, no restrooms, no nail salons, no showers, really crummy food and no restaurants, and certainly, no privacy when you need to relieve yourself in anyway (you have to find a tree for a pissing target) — I doubt you’ll see any women jumping at the chance. You really need to stop watching movies with Demi Moore, too.

    And if women do volunteer for any kind of special forces training, including SEALs, they’ll get the same treatment that the guys get. No one will force them to fail.

  16. NHSparky says:

    Doc–the funny thing is, there was a mini-series on Class 234 on Discovery a couple of years back, which shows these big badass guys falling left and right. I’m guessing Darlene has no idea such a show ever existed:

  17. A_Proud_Infidel says:

    Next they’ll be calling for relaxed standards in the name of “diversity”, just watch.

  18. MCPO NYC USN (Ret.) says:

    The day a female is authorized, recruited and passes BUD/S like in the movie classic block-buster production “GI Jane” will be the same day I am kidnapped be a gang of little blue beings (the SMURF movie), I am gang raped in a basement of a pawn shop (PULP FICTION), I am saved by a guy red exoskeleton (IRON MAN), and I end up George, with a deep infactuation for Jenny (10).


  19. Ex-PH2 says:

    Master chief, are you — never mind.

  20. MCPO NYC USN (Ret.) says:

    @ 19 … I will take that as a saved compliment to be used at a later date!

  21. ComancheDoc says:

    NHSparky- I think I watched parts of that; I had to turn it off because I thought they were dumb, but that’s prolly why I was a line medic and not a SOF guy, that and I’m too lazy. It’s definately something aspiring SEALS -male or female- should watch; help separate the chaff before money is wasted.

  22. UpNorth says:

    “This does not mean that standards will necessarily be changed; it only means thatoccupational standards will be developed and/or tested in billets for which the only previous criterion was being male.” Yeah, in other words, even Darlene sees the standards being “developed” in ways to make sure that women get what she wants.

  23. NHSparky says:

    I wish we’d had something like that in recruiting when I was the Nuke Field recruiter. It got to the point I could almost just look at their line scores, talk to the kid for 15-20 seconds, and tell if they were/weren’t going to make it through the pipeline.

    Yeah, it was kinda cheesy, but it certainly demonstrated that as much physical toughness BUD/S requires, it demands that much more MENTAL toughness.

  24. Jumpmaster says:

    When the first round of female candidates get a big dose of reality and fail any course, expect the lawsuits to follow. Gloria Allred will be holding a press conference to describe how her client, a female soldier, was “humiliated, belittled, subjected to sexual harrassment, intimidated, discriminated against and forced to endure a hostile work environment all because she is a female.” Believe it.

  25. Ex-PH2 says:

    @24, Gee, that sounds like the Navy when I enlisted in the 1960s.

    If Gloria does start running her mouth, I may show up and tell her to STFU, because it’s part of the job.

  26. Twist says:

    Gloria Allred has made herself a lucrative career hating men.

  27. Bam Bam says:

    What about the danger of attracting sharks?…

  28. Scubasteve says:

    27, different blood supply, it doesn’t attract sharks.

    However, the SMA recently stated that he wants to revisit the current standards that have been in place for 30+ years and see if they are ‘really accurate’. He specifically mentioned loading rounds in a tank (six in a minute, I think) and rucking 12 miles in the Infantry. He was hinting at the standards being obsolete and needing to be updated to reflect modern Soldiers. I’ll see if I can find the article again.

  29. Scubasteve says:

    Here it is, and I was wrong about the numbers above, but eh, I digress:

    CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (Army News Service, Jan. 30, 2013) — “What do you think about women in combat (specialties)?” asked a sergeant at the Noncommissioned Officer Academy here yesterday.

    “Tell me what you think,” Sgt. Maj. of the Army Raymond F. Chandler III replied during a Q&A chat with some 50 NCOs at The Judge Advocate General’s Legal Center & School, on the campus of the University of Virginia. “This is important by the way. It’s a great question.”

    “I don’t have a problem with this,” said the sergeant. “People who are able to meet the same standards should have the same possibilities, however, I believe there should be one standard.”

    Chandler nodded his approval of the sergeant’s analysis.

    “As an Army, we should be seeking the best qualified and most talented individuals and match them against the requirements for the Army, regardless of gender,” Chandler said. “So if you’re the best-qualified to be an 11 Bravo (infantryman) and that’s what you want to do, then I say ‘go for it.’

    “The most important thing people need to take away from this is that this is about managing talent,” he continued. “This is about us finding the best-qualified people to do the jobs that we need them to do in the Army, for the Army to be successful in supporting the nation.”

    The topic about women in combat military occupational specialties came up because Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey signed a memo Jan. 24, paving the way for more women to serve in direct combat roles and in more military occupational specialties, or MOSs, that are now open only to males.

    The memo rescinds the 1994 DOD “Direct Ground Combat Definition and Assignment Rule,” which states in part: “Service members are eligible to be assigned to all positions for which they are qualified, except that women shall be excluded from assignment to units below the brigade level whose primary mission is to engage in direct combat on the ground.”

    The memo does not spell out which MOSs will be open to women. Rather, it directs the services to provide their implementation strategies to the DOD by May 2013. Implementation will begin this year and be completed by Jan. 1, 2016.

    Chandler said that once the decision was made by the secretary of Defense and the president to open more positions to women, it’s now every Soldier’s duty to carry this out and to ensure “it’s done within the spirit and intent (of the order) and to the best of our ability.”

    “This to me goes back to your commitment to the Profession of Arms and what you’ve chosen to do when you took that oath, which is to be a United States Army Soldier,” he added.

    The U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command is now reviewing the five closed career fields: armor, artillery, infantry, combat engineers and special forces. Those reviews include physical requirements necessary to perform the job. Chandler provided some examples of how he thinks the standards might be reviewed.

    “I’m a tanker by background and from the armor school perspective they say the highest physical requirement is to load the gun on the tank,” he said. “So you’ve got to be in the seated position, take about a 60-pound projectile, hold it, turn your body and put it in the gun within five seconds, (12 times in a minute). That’s their highest physical requirement.

    “Now we’re going to assess that to make sure it’s still accurate, because that requirement is about 30 years old. And if it is (still accurate), then that will be the requirement for everyone when we open that MOS,” adding that these standards will be gender-neutral.

    Chandler then offered an example from the infantry occupational series.

    “Their highest performance requirement is to carry 128 pounds,” he said. “Now where does that number come from? Twelve pounds for uniform, about 60 pounds for body armor and the rest is in your assault pack. You’ve got to be able to carry that weight and conduct a road march a certain distance and be able to move directly into combat.

    “Is that still accurate?” he asked rhetorically. “We’re going to assess that. Do you need to be able to march 20 kilometers in six hours? Is that what we expect every infantryman to do?”

    “Many of these physical requirements are very old, so we’ve got to confirm that those requirements still exist and is it a reasonable expectation for all people to be able to perform the tasks associated,” he added.

    Chandler said TRADOC is assessing not only the five closed MOSs but also other MOSs. He said those assessments “will be a very deliberate process” and plans for implementation should be ready to present to the secretary of Defense by May.

    In addition to the MOS assessments, Chandler said the Army will be “continuing our nine-brigade pilot that we’re working on to expand the role of women from a unit perspective and we’re going to expand that and incorporate the Army National Guard and Army Reserve and other brigades across the Army as we expand the opportunities for our female Soldiers.”

    Chandler advised that before Soldiers start asking a lot of detailed questions about the assessments and standards they “wait and let TRADOC do their job.”

  30. ChopIT says:

    @27 – I think I smell blood in the water…

  31. Twist says:

    @27, Then I think they will need a bigger boat.

  32. Stacy0311 says:

    because everybody knows combat is now a commuter war. Drive your MRAP/humvee bust a few rounds from the turret. Maybe dismount every now and then. No need to hump a ruck. And loading a main gun round in 5 seconds? The enemy will simply wait until you signal your tank is “UP”. 3 years to 30 and I’m gone…..

  33. Ex-PH2 says:

    @Scubastever, can I find out more about that at a dive shop?

  34. Old 21B says:

    @Scubasteve, I started wondering if current standards would be “updated to reflect current needs” such as will they look at Hell Week and decide that it was invented simply to keep women out and offers no measurable training value even though it has been around far longer than the notion of letting women into combat positions.

  35. Scubasteve says:

    #33, A basic open water course should mention it. Especially if your open water dives are in the ocean, and there’s females in the class. It’s also basic biology that it’s not the same blood that’s in your circulatory system.

    #34, I’m waiting for the hazing charges to start being pressed.

  36. 2/17 Air Cav says:

    Here, Darlene, have a Pop Tart.

  37. Ex-PH2 says:

    To be fair, Demi Moore did not go into that :P) movie unprepared. She spent many, many weeks in training with Sean Kelveston, a retired SEAL, and went on a diet specifically aimed at increasing muscle mass and reducing body fat. I found a video of her in the movie’s training scenes doing one-armed ‘guy’ pushups, and I counted 8, but I saw only one clip of her doing a pullup, and only one pullup. And I’m not going to sit through that movie just to count pullups.

    Here’s something you should understand about body fat: if women lose too much body fat, they stop menstruating. Female gymnasts are frequently thrown out of cycle because of this. It does upset your hormone balance, too, and you can lose bone mass without realizing it. If you think it does not take a lot of physical strength to be a female gymnast, you are mistaken – it takes a LOT.

  38. Ex-PH2 says:

    @35 — Thank you for clearing that up for me.

  39. Scubasteve says:

    You drew 1st blood, just keeping the sarcasm flowing. 🙂

  40. Ex-PH2 says:

    @30 😉

  41. Hondo says:

    Scubasteve: ‘cmon – Rambo has nothing to do with this. (smile)

  42. Twist says:

    I’m pleased and happy to repeat the news that we have, in fact, caught and killed a large predator that supposedly injured some bathers. But, as you see, it’s a beautiful day, the beaches are open and people are having a wonderful time. Amity, as you know, means “friendship”.

    I’m staying with the shark theme.

  43. Ex-PH2 says:



  44. FatCircles0311 says:

    Decades of lower standards to occupy less physically demanding jobs equates to suddenly being able to meet even higher standards……

    Politically correct logic 101

  45. NHSparky says:

    Sometimes that shark he looks right into ya. Right into your eyes. And, you know, the thing about a shark… he’s got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll’s eyes. When he comes at ya, doesn’t seem to be living… until he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then… ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin’.

  46. Peter says:

    Just FYI, CDR Iskra is a retired Navy Special Operations (read Diving and Salvage) officer, and I believe was the first woman to hold a command at sea (a salvage ship). She was also (hopefully still is) married to a pretty senior SEAL officer. She is good people and deserves our respect.
    If there are any women out there with the chops to make these assertions, she is certainly among ’em.
    I still think she’s mostly wrong. No doubt the feminists and careerists assume that we’ll always have an all-vol force, and also assume that a Ranger tab or Budweiser or what have you are simply enhancements to the resume.
    They need to study the history of the first year of, like, almost all our wars…and be very careful what they wish for.

  47. Ex-PH2 says:

    Here’s a link to the history of women in the Navy:

    CDR Iskra is on page 16.

  48. Scubasteve says:

    Now I really want to watch Jaws again. Forgot there were so many quotes from there. “Show me the way to go home. I’m tired and I wanna go to bed. I had a little drink about an hour ago, and it went right to my hea….Squirrel!!”

    Hondo, I realized the Rambo link as soon as I posted earlier. Totally unintentional. We should have a best and worst movie quotes section.

  49. Hondo says:

    Scubasteve: figured that was unintentional. Still, couldn’t resist. Too good an opportunity. (smile)

  50. Anonymous says:

    At EX-PH2.

    Lets not forget 3 Star Vice ADM Braun, Chief of Naval Reserve Force.

    RADM Bonnie Potter first female Chief of NAV MED.

    And my favorite, who I met in the early 1980’s at SWOS:

    Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper (December 9, 1906 – January 1, 1992) was an American computer scientist and United States Navy officer. A pioneer in the field, she was one of the first programmers of the Harvard Mark I computer, and developed the first compiler for a computer programming language. She conceptualized the idea of machine-independent programming languages, which led to the development of COBOL, one of the first modern programming languages. She is credited with popularizing the term “debugging” for fixing computer glitches (motivated by an actual moth removed from the computer). Owing to the breadth of her accomplishments and her naval rank, she is sometimes referred to as “Amazing Grace.” The U.S. Navy destroyer USS Hopper (DDG-70) is named for her, as was the Cray XE6 “Hopper” supercomputer at NERSC. Source Wiki.

    Hopper had a brilliant mind!

    Many more … officer and enlisted.