Marine pull up controversy continues

| January 1, 2014 | 41 Comments

The Marines found out that pull ups are too hard for female boots, so the commandant, John Amos, decided that, despite the USMC’s announcement that they’d make women do three (F’n) pull ups to graduate from Boot Camp this year, they won’t change the requirement from the “flex arm hang” because they don’t want to discourage female boots, says Stars & Stripes;

The Marine Corps announced in December 2012 its intent to require pull-ups for women, and added pull-up specific training to boot camp, and posted a workout program online for Marines to follow, said Col. Sean Gibson, a Marine spokesman.

Fifty-five percent of female recruits were unable to do the minimum of three pull-ups, but there will be no change.

“Current physical training of recruits has demonstrated positive results and is continuing as currently structured,” he said.

Marine Corps Training and Education Command will also “continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed,” Gibson said.

Amos pushed back the requirement because he was concerned that an unacceptable number of female recruits, officer candidates and Marines would fail the test or leave the Corps because of it, Gibson said.

Like I said before, they’re training women incorrectly if, after eight weeks of physical training, they still can’t do three (F’n) pull ups (FFS). They just don’t want to – by “they” I mean either the Marine Corps or the women, whichever is failing the commandant.

Category: Marine Corps

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  1. ohio says:

    Wussification of the Corps. Just what Amos and 0bama want.

  2. Ex-PH2 says:

    Hmm… motivation is still a factor, or should be. How about we just send those girls back until they meet the requirement? :)

  3. Old Trooper says:

    We had guys that couldn’t pass the PT test on the first evaluation, but by the end, no one failed. In fact, one guy, who was particularly weak, worked out on his own at night in order to get it done. Motivation, as Ex-PH2 says, was the big factor.

    As Jonn says; someone is failing, either to properly motivate the individual, or failing the Commandant.

  4. Beretverde says:

    The “Big Lie” is given more life.

  5. 2/17 Air Cav says:

    How long before someone suggests that the PT requirements are silly, insofar as troops do no pull-ups, per se, either in the field or behind a desk? And which service will be the first to eliminate the combat elements of traditional BT in favor, solely, of the universally applicable military nicieties of saluting, marching, and such? Combat training will be only for those with a waepons-need MOS.

  6. Nicki says:

    Know what’s really odd? They apparently get more motivation and training as poolees in the recruitment phase. My daughter was in very good shape when she enlisted, but she couldn’t really do pull-ups. She did PT with the recruiting command every day before she shipped out. By the time she shipped, she could do those three pull-ups. She can do about 10 now. Motivation.

    BTW – just an update: they finished the Crucible yesterday. They become real Marines today, and they graduate on the 10th.

  7. 2/17 Air Cav says:

    @6. Cool. Congrats. Seems like yesterday that she went in–or was it that she was in BC when you told us?

  8. Sparks says:

    Here we go again. I agree someone in this equation is failing. When I was in, Drill Sergeants had the ability to “motivate”, if you understand my meaning, a recruit. By that I do not mean physical harm unless, working their butts off at the needed shortcoming is considered harm. They would zone in on what a boot needed and work the hell out of that. But my understanding from posts here at TAH and younger troops I have talked to that is a “kinder, gentler”, training now. DIs and DSs are not allowed the latitude in “motivation” they had in my day. I believe any reasonably fit woman, with proper motivation and a persistent attitude to succeed, can accomplish 3 pull ups. If they do, then there is a whole bucket full of other requirements to make a person into a qualified combat troop for say Light Infantry. After the pull ups, how will the rest be dealt with or will those requirements also, be gender normed? I am older and to me this is a simple issue. The issue is combat. Getting to the fight, killing the enemy, living in the field and killing some more enemy and doing this as safely for all there as possible. If anyone, man or woman reduces that mission and the safety of the platoon, then they are out of there. Or better, as in my time, they would not have made it there in the first place because they would have long before been weeded out as non-performers. The military needs clerks too you know and supply folks and a lot of other needed, honorable forms of service.

  9. Hondo says:

    Nicki: please pass along to your daughter our congrats – and our collective welcome to the profession of arms.

  10. Nicki says:

    @7 – it seems just yesterday. It’s weird. The time really flew. She’s a kickass kid. She made squad leader a few weeks into it, and did a little time as platoon guide (is that what the Marines call it?) as well. She got 299/300 on the CFT the other day, and if I know her, she’s pissed about that one lousy point. Graduation is next Friday!

    Hondo, I will. I swore to myself that I would print out all the well-wishes on every site for her to read. I know it will be great for her!

  11. Ex-PH2 says:

    Nicki, please pass along my serious congratulations to your daughter.

    It’s MUCH tougher now than it was when I went into the Navy.

    Motivation is doing something that you love to do, as well as you can possibly do it. Maybe you even surpass your own expectations. (That includes staying alive and keeping others alive, too, in a firefight.) You have to WANT to do it. Otherwise, you’re just kidding yourself.

  12. 21Zulu says:

    So now the Equal Opportunity question is- why are male recruits still required to do pull ups?

  13. Nicki says:

    Ex-PH2 – I absolutely will!

    I think the motivation has to come from within. Women are capable of achieving these standards. Most of them, however, have been raised as precious snowflakes, who are entitled to everything with a minimum of work. I can’t blame the DIs too much. The recruits need to step up and suck it up.

    When I was in, I made sure to pass the APFT by male standards (at the end, I could do the run all that well, because I have three screws holding my knee together, but I still ran it and wouldn’t accept a profile). Why? Because I don’t like double standards. We’re one military. If we’re expected to perform the same jobs as men, we need to be as good as men. Period.

  14. FatCircles0311 says:

    The double standards in the corps is redicous horse shit and it’s at the core of why most male marines can’t stand wooks. At the very beginning they are taught they are special and held to a lower standard yet the corps tells marines that met a higher standard to view these people as equals that rate the title.

    Yeah, ok.

    Equal standards across the board would equate to a much better view of female marines in the corps. This constant bullshit parade of discrimination just fuels problems with coed fleet units.

    In an age where forces are being cut the requirements should be increasing not decreasing to make non war fighters feel good.

  15. Sparks says:

    @13 Nicki, congratulations to your daughter. She has all of my respect for her accomplishments. I hope she enjoys every moment of her service!

  16. UpNorth says:

    Nicki, congratulations to you and your daughter. On to the pull-up story.
    When I worked security at the high school, I watched the Marine recruiter and talked with him, as my son was a Marine recruiter in Oklahoma at the time. He brought a portable pull-up bar with him. I never saw a girl that tried, fail to do at least 3 pull-ups.

  17. Nicki says:

    Thanks, you guys. I will pass on all the well-wishes next week!

    I agree. There’s no reason in the world why females can’t do the pull-ups. None.

  18. Beretverde says:

    Congrats on being able to do a few pullups. Now on the four-deuce baseplate for the twenty miler…

  19. Fred says:

    It’s a kinder and gentler basic training phase now because it’s the only way to prevent the girls from dropping out like flies. In a way this cheats the guys of training because they must train at the rate of the lowest common denominator (typically the women). By the way your daughter’s 10 pull-ups are likely not as rigorously scored as the males (I.e. They typically allow the girls to kick, struggle, and not go to full extension while the guys have to do proper form, full extension pull-ups). This means her 10 pull-ups are probably closer to 5 properly graded male pull-ups. But hey, it’s okay to fake her pull-ups in the name of diversity because we all know there will be a strong male marine to “pull” her “up” and out of danger. At least until all the males are forced out of the military by the feminists and their ilk.

  20. CWO5USMC says:

    I would be lying if I said I was shocked. They won’t change the standard for upper body strength….ever. All this hype about making us completely equal won’t play out.

    Anyone else remember the times when PFT run for females were only 1.5 miles and the males were doing 3? It’s easier to change the run distance than flex arm hang to pull ups…..and that took a long time.

    @17, Congrats to your daughter for finishing Recruit Training. PISC always holds a special place in my heart. Now she needs to keep her motovation through MOS school and her first FMF unit…..that’s the real test. Again, you should be proud of her. It’s not an easy accomplishment.

  21. Nicki says:

    Fred, please don’t presume anything about my daughter’s level of physical fitness. I’ve seen her do pull-ups, and she does them well. That was prior to her shipping out for basic training. And considering the entire thing is being postponed for now, she’s not being “graded” on anything. She’s worked her ass off to meet and exceed standards, so I would appreciate it if you shoved your assumptions up your fourth point of contact.

    #20 – thanks! She’s pretty excited. She’s probably going to DLI first and then to MOS school. She wants to make the military a career. Who knows if that will still be the case in a few years? But for her sake, I hope so. She loves it so far. She wants to continue developing her strength, and she’s excited to keep working at it.

    They should make the standards more equal – at least for females who want to have more combat-oriented MOSs. They need to be able to hand with the guys if they’re going to be working with them. I don’t give a crap if the attrition rate would be higher. It shouldn’t matter.

  22. Ex-PH2 says:

    Fred, you disgruntled, jealous, self-serving jackwagon: if you aren’t there ti witness how something was done, you don’t have a leg to stand on speculating about it.

    What you said indicates exactly what you think of women in general. And I’m sure (just speculating, of course) that you think women are only good for two things, one of them being picking your pocket, per Phil Robertson.

    On the other hand, you don’t really want to know what I think of you, do you?

  23. rb325th says:

    @Nicki, Congrats to your Daughter!! Thanks as well!!

  24. Nicki says:

    @rb325th – thank you! I’m definitely one proud mommy! :)

    @Ex-PH2 – LMAO! You are da shit!

  25. Ex-PH2 says:

    @Nicki – :) Thank you!

  26. Emma says:

    Females can do pull ups! And good ones! I myself can do 9 and I’m not in the military. My goal was to be able to do 10, and while I haven’t reached that number yet, I went from 4 jumping pull ups to 9 pillar pull ups. It can be done! There is no reason to lessen requirements. At a recent obstacle race the Air Force had a strict pull up competition and the winning female did 20 pull ups. Women are not men. Women are not as physically strong as men. But women are strong. We can do this stuff, with hard work and conviction.

  27. smoke-check says:

    @5 End PT requirements? Funny you say that. From the DU links on Tuesday that’s exactly what some know-it-all keyboard geniuses are advocating. Its almost as if you are familiar with their scatterbrain line of thinking. In addition to knowing what requirements are best for jobs they’ve never done, they are also so prophetic they can predict the future of military conflicts the US will find it self in (i.e. ground occupations will never happen again, all we need are drones and powersuits).

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024235491

  28. OWB says:

    How’s about we join them in their lunacy? One of the biggest scams the libbies have going for them is the education industry. Maybe we could return the favor?

    No reason AT ALL that there should be all those arbitrary “standards” to teach school. After all, they are the ones requiring a bunch of college hours in “education” instead of having science teachers with knowledge about science.

    So, maybe we could make as much noise about there being no need to have “standards” in education? Why should teachers have degrees? Why shouldn’t any of us be able to teach school?

    (Feel free to substitute any of their sacred cows for education.)

  29. David says:

    OWB – you’re about 40 years too late – back in the ’60s and ’70s most of the standards were removed as they weren’t “relevant” any longer. Hell, kids barely learn cursive writing or history any more.

  30. smoke-check says:

    You’re so right OWB. Hey he’s a nice guy and tries really really hard, but he’s just bad at tests and cant do pull ups. Its society’s fault somehow so here, we’ll just issue him Ranger tab, a diploma diploma from Harvard Business School, and a participation trophy. Now he won’t ever feel inadequate, we all get that tingly feeling and get to tell everyone how fair and just we are. Everyone wins right?

    Results and standards don’t matter so long as everyone feels good about themselves. Welcome to self imposed destruction.

  31. Ex-PH2 says:

    Feel good about myself? Not just ‘NO’ but ‘F!CK NO’.

    If I want to feel good about myself, I can mow the lawn.

    Hey, that’s it! These new standards will qualify young people to do menial tasks like changing beds and cleaning bathrooms in hotels and making sure they leave foil-wrapped mints on the pillows, for minimum wage. Let’s take away incentive (grades), a sense of accomplishment (competition scores), and a drive to achieve (Stephen Hawking). Let’s just turn as many children as possible into drek.

    Yeah, that’s it. I was there. I saw it myself. It was incredible! It was amazing! It was so stupid, I wept for the children who will never know what they might have been.

    Eeewwwwwwww!

  32. Sparks says:

    @30 Spot On Smoke-check! Standards don’t matter in our school district. Around here the big thing is the “Pride Inside” program the school has going on and has for years. The way it works is if the kid is a dumb ass because he won’t do the work. He has all the excuses in the world why it’s not his fault and his parents support him in those. So while he is socially promoted through the system, they hand out “Pride Inside” awards. It means you are a dumb ass but thanks for coming the minimum required days for us to get our federal matching funds. Since we don’t want to bruise any of your special snowflake egos, here is your award for at least having, “Pride Inside”. They even hand out bumper stickers for the folks to sport. The number of “My Child Has Pride Inside” bumper stickers out number the “My Child Is An Honor Student” bumper stickers by 50 to 1. That’s an easy conservative estimate. The kid can’t tell you what country is North OF America because he has no concept of where or what North is to begin with. My gosh, I stop and realize they will be voters someday! I realize how easily they are swayed to the dark side, make that liberal, because they are entitled and have been all through school. They expect it and the ones telling them they can expect it AND have it are the Democrats. God help America!

  33. Sparks says:

    @31 Thank you and well said. What in the heck happened to taking care of your own feelings? What happened to, it is up to ME to work to make myself succeed, accomplish and excel and thereby feel good about myself? No, nowadays it is all about it is someone else’s RESPONSIBILITY to take care of me, make sure I succeed, make sure I eat, am housed, have health care and especially make me FEEL good about myself when I standing in that “give me mine line”. Damn, dumb liberal, “I will give you your whole life, cradle to grave, if you will just vote for me” Democrats! Whew!

  34. 96B2S says:

    This is bullshit. If they can’t do 3 pullups after 12 weeks of boot camp then their instructors are failing them. Every woman that goes through airborne school has to do more then 3 fucking pullups.

  35. OWB says:

    It really is not a mystery. The military is the last bastion of people being held to standards, so of course it is targeted by those who espouse mediocrity for all.

    Yeah, back in the dark ages, my chemistry, physics, English, math, even P.E. teachers had PhD’s in their subject matter. In high school. In public school. (Memory is not what it once was – my Spanish teacher may have as well, but she preferred being called “Senora.”) And these were just ordinary teachers – not advanced placement. Senior year, my art teacher may have been my only teacher without a PhD, and she was a well known artist with an MA in fine art, working on her PhD.

    Funny how much more we learned about the subjects when our teachers were themselves well educated in the topics they were teaching.

  36. Just An Old Dog says:

    If they want wooks to do pull-ups they have to phase it in. I’m all for it because it will ensure the women we get are stronger.
    Not that long ago wooks didn’t have to qual with the rifle or run three miles. It can be done, its just a matter of accepting a much higher attrition rate.

  37. 96B2S says:

    @36

    WM have known about this for a year now. They have had plenty of time to train and prepare themselves. As for the women going through boot, it shouldn’t matter as long as the DIs train them properly.

  38. 2/17 Air Cav says:

    The progression nowadays is diapers, pull-ups, underwear. My suggestion is that wear ‘em until you can do ‘em.

  39. joe says:

    Equal Work for Equal Pay!!! Unless the work is too hard, then it’s just equal pay for less work…

    I’m not even sure why we’re wasting our time with pull-up equality. If these women were really honest then we should allow the men to qualify in combatives training and boxing against the women. Seriously, if these gals are so strong they should be able to take a bruising in the ring with a man. And the man shouldn’t have to be told ahead of time “please go easy on her.” Because hey, according to all the keyboard warriors they have stronger lower body muscles than men and as any boxer/MMA athlete will tell you: punching power is derived from the legs.

    What, is boxing or hand to hand combatives against men too brutal? Then how are they supposed to make it through live fire combat?

    By the way keyboard warriors: I have been in the military for 10+ years and NEVER have I seen a woman do 10 REAL pullups. Please stop lying about your Amazon sister, aunt, coworker, etc. SHE doesn’t do 10 pullups. She has never done 10 pullups. She will never do 10 pullups. Sorry to break it to you; but cutting your hair short to look like a dude, does not actually make you a dude…

  40. Just An Old Dog says:

    @37, Thanks I wasn’t sure how long the order had been out, apparently they didn’t implement it into training.

  41. FoxtrotUniform says:

    Wow, lowering standards for females who can’t meet the minimum requirements I would have never guessed!!

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