Don’t Condemn Hostages Who Denounce America

| August 22, 2014 | 64 Comments

I had an epiphany, an awakening moment today, regarding the issue of those hostages held by jihadist organizations as pawns in this expanding war of militant Islam versus the rest of the world. Like millions of others, I was disgusted with the jihadi mindset that would stage an on- camera beheading of a young American reporter. But I was also disgusted with the tragedy that this courageous young reporter would in his final moments denounce his country.

My first response to that was more disgust and even contempt that in his last living moments, this young man could not show the courage to refuse to be a spokesman for the ruthless fanatics who were about to saw his head from his body. From an articulate young reporter, could we not expect the brave words of an earlier era: “Give me liberty or give me death?” That I did not hear such patriotic bravado disappointed me, as it did millions of other Americans, who leaped to denounce the unfortunate young man who died gruesomely right before us.

I was wrong – totally and completely wrong.

It took a commenter on a website discussion of the matter to open my eyes and make me realize how thoughtlessly wrong I, and millions of others, had been regarding this young man’s courage. That commenter pointed out that the jihadi captors had an evil and diabolic way of preventing such dying testaments of loyalty: they simply staged fake decapitation events to determine if a hostage would attempt a dying moment of defiance with a declaration of love for their country.

If a subject attempts to make his last words a defiant declaration of love of and loyalty to America, the jihadis do not kill him. Instead, they return him to their imprisonment and fiercely torture him for his defiance. That diabolical cleverness puts hostages into an entirely no-win position: they can be defiant before the video cameras and live to suffer more torture, or they can spout the jihadi propaganda and hope that their sadistic masters will not choose that moment to saw off their heads.

These people are in a position beyond hope, and for that reason I and the rest of this country should not ever again condemn a jihadist hostage for his dying words. We should instead put ourselves in his most unfortunate place and make no moral judgment – until we ourselves have walked some pain-filled steps in those terrible shoes…

I would hope that the parents of James Foley could read this and accept my apology for too hurriedly passing judgment on their son. I would further hope that all those others who may have possibly pre-judged young Foley would read this and tender their respects to the Foley family. While I may not countenance his judgment, I can never question his courage in going into that never-land where so many fear to tread.

James Foley…R.I.P.

Crossposted at American Thinker

Category: Terror War

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  1. Farflung Wanderer says:

    It’s horrible what these… They’re not even people anymore in my eyes…

    It is a horrible position to be in, and my full sympathy goes to Foley.

    Let’s just make them pay for killing him. All of them.

    No more Foleys. Never again.

  2. Loach says:

    Amen.

    Even the Code of Conduct recognizes everyone has a breaking point. These terrorists all have access to the same info. They have learned how to break people down. In the two years he was held captive he was probably told he was being released dozens of times. He was probably also told he was being executed dozens of times. Maybe daily. I’m certainly in no position to pass judgement on him. I’ll concentrate on looking for justice for Mr Foley.

  3. Sparks says:

    Thank you Poetrooper and well said. I agree. This man was a young journalist doing his job in a terrible place. Even had he been a trained soldier, the horrible mind and body strains of torture and mock executions could bring most to a mental state of, “I am going to die, sooner or later. Perhaps slower than faster. With more pain or less. All I can do is to hope it is over as quickly as possible”. I am only imagining here though. I don’t know, as no one does, the fears and thoughts that plagued and weighed upon this young man’s mind and soul as he awaited his fate. I would like to say, as many, I may have done differently. But in honesty I cannot say that. I have never been faced with such horror. God bless his family and God rest his soul now. I will not judge him or his final words. After the fact opinions of expected bravado from Mr. Foley are, in my humble opinion, just that. After the fact and without ever being faced with such horrors as he faced.

    I will reserve my thoughts of our President and his inaction for another thread.

    This post is just my one humble opinion and speaks to or for no one else.

    • Smitty says:

      I could accept this had it not been for the pro jihadi and anti American statements he made before his capture. The terrorists killed one of their own because he was American, I figure one less that good guys with guns have to kill later. Good riddance to Mr Foley

  4. OLD 1SG, US Army (retired) says:

    Your comments are thoughtful and right on target. Mr. Foley was in a terrible situation and I’m sure it played out exactly as you described.

    We have to remember that he was a civilian and not bound by the Code of Conduct and other oaths that the military subscribe to. That said, I don’t know how I would react confronted with this type of despicable, barbaric torture and horrific killing — code or no code, oath or no oath.

    Needless to say Mr. Foley was a brave American and may he rest in peace.

    • Richard says:

      Top, agreed. I read the books written by the guys in the Hanoi Hilton. The commanders ordered the pilots to tolerate as much torture as they could then do what it took to stay alive. There would be no hard feelings. The US didn’t win by having a prisoner tortured to death. Denton paid a hell of a price for that Morse code blink trick.

  5. cannoncocker says:

    I read a comment on a website that I thought was pretty good. The gist of it was, this isn’t Hollywood and Foley isn’t William Wallace. Give him some slack.

    RIP James Foley. Your suffering is over now.

  6. Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

    Well said and thank you for the words.

    I keep hoping that now, after whatever the latest terrible deed that these muslim zealots commit, journalists and politicians alike will begin to realize that muslim zealots are not using rhetoric when they state they wish to rid the world of heathens and create a perfect islamic state. These are not people to be reasoned with, these are not people who will create conflict to gain resources, they are people who create conflict to rid the world of their heathen enemies.

    They mean to kill us all or enslave us or a combination of the two. For me that is enough reason to believe it is time to bring overwhelming, devastating and unending death down upon them and their families and unfortunately the nations that are currently hosting them. Power vacuums are awful because no one knows who will fill them, but if the muslim zealots are all dead we can be sure it won’t be another variant on that terrible theme.

    It’s not genocide to defend yourself, it’s called survival of the species. We can continue to pretend that somewhere the right words exist to turn murderers into diplomatic allies or we can recognize that our enemies in this conflict only understand death because that is what they deal in every day. Make them fear us, make them understand the great satan will indeed unleash the fires of hell on their warriors and their women and children in a unending maelstrom of burning, horrific death with the dead and the maimed screaming in agony until they breathe their last.

    Millions of dead muslims is a good start towards a brighter future. When the followers of allah realize death is the only outcome available they will have two choices, accept their impotence and surrender or fight until they are all dead. Either outcome benefits the US. Make the Israeli attacks on Gaza appear to be humanitarian aid in contrast, that’s a message these allah loving assholes can understand in their primitive brain pans.

    • Sparks says:

      VOV…I can offer no better words. Thank you.

    • Fjardeson says:

      Well said. We, as the Western world, need to stop bringing lawyers and knives to this gunfight. Let’s try some MOAB’s for starters.

      Once their civilians know that we aren’t cowed by their human shield tactics, they will stay away from the extremists.

      Then the surgery can begin.

    • 10thMountainMan says:

      Well VOV, I’m saddened to see what side you’re on. I’d rather see America die than turn into a barbaric horde that “unleashes the fires of hell on their … women and children in an unending maelstrom of burning, horrific death…”

      You fit nicely in this bloody century. Maybe when the next bloodthirsty tyrabt raises an Army you can be his Goebbels.

      I’m all for letting the hammer fall on Islam, but I’m also fully in the camp of those old fashioned ideals of courtesy to women, grace to captives, and protecting the weak.

      • Just an Old Dog says:

        I don’t think he is advocating the wholesale slaughter of innocents, however he is pointing out the fact that if we are going to go after ISIS there are going to be a LOT of bystanders caught in the crossfire.
        We have misled to the idea that we are capable of conducting some “surgical” kind of warfare where we are capable of eparatig the sheep from the goats so well that we will have damn near zero civilian casualties.
        Even with the screwed up Rules of engangement in the recent wars and a genuine effort to aviod civilian casualties there were lots of them.
        In order to destroy ISIS we need to take away their only effective tactic they would have. The ability to blend in with non-combatants and use them as cover.
        We won WW2 by destroying the infrastructure of Germany and Japan. ISIS controlled territory is all fair game. Any building they use is a target, any assembly area or convoy is fair game.
        If there are “citizens” of ISIS intermixed with them they will unfortunately pay the price.
        I am fed up with our guys dying to try to prevent. I can’t think of any number of ISIS “civilans” or supporters, regardess of age or sex that are worth ONE more American life,]

      • Poetrooper says:

        Question for you Mountain Man: do you advocate sending hundreds of thousands of ground troops back into Iraq to fight these barbarians on their terms? Remember that their terms include hiding their assets among the civilian population so as to deny us targets unless we are willing to inflict substantial collateral damage; or even to put civilians out front as human shields.

        To equate VoV with the Nazi leadership is a cheap shot and not one well thought out. To eliminate the Nazi threat the Allies did exactly what VoV suggests, we bombed their cities into rubble. And precisely for psychological effect on both the German and Japanese civilian populations, we FIRE BOMBED many of their major cities because fire is a great terror weapon. We unleashed two huge, unprecedented fireballs on two Japanese cities that were of minor military value as targets but were perfect to instill panic in the Japanese citizenry.

        VoV is simply advocating what we as a country have done before but no longer seem to have the will to do, that is, to engage in total war, the all out destruction of an enemy until we break their will to continue fighting.

        He’s in pretty good company; FDR, Harry Truman, George Marshall, Dwight Eisenhower, Douglas Mac Arthur and millions of others seem to have agreed to the necessity of total war even the killing of women and children.

        A big difference between us and the Axis powers in how we wage total war is that we did it from the air, not with our ground forces, while the Germans and Japanese ground troops were merciless in their slaughtering of innocents.

        You need to give this issue more and deeper thought before you come here and condemn a good man. And even though I’ve never met VoV, I know from his frequent insightful comments on this site that he is indeed a good man.

        Just as i started the article today with an apology, I think you owe one to our comrade in arms, Veritas Omnia Vincit.

        • GDContractor says:

          Another example is Israel. You bomb them where they are. If the civilians don’t like it they can either die, move, or assist in the bringing about of regime change. As we have recently discussed, life is about choices.

        • 10thMountainMan says:

          I’m not a strategist, Poe, I’m a separated E5 with a big library. I don’t know the best way to fight ISIS. I do know, however, that what VOV said earlier was bullshit. Women and kids getting caught in the impact zone is tragic and it will happen. Deliberately striking them as part of your METL in the final solution to the Islamic problem is evil.

          Japan sowed hell and reaped the fire, I get it. I know about Japan from Marquis Ito and Nanking to Unit 731. I’m not sorry they got bombed, but it was wrong to hit civilian areas deliberately. It was wrong to give aid to USSR during WW2, you can’t throw out the devil with Beazlebub.

          I do apologize for equating VOV with Nazi elite that was fucked up.

          Sorry for being a prick, I know that we’re still the good guys.

          • Poetrooper says:

            Thanks for responding even though we do have a remaining major point of disagreement, that of doing what is necessary to make your foe quit trying to hurt you and yours.

            All human history has shown that you do not defeat those who wish you dead through noble, magnanimous gestures.

            This is the self-same predicament that Israel has been facing all these years. They possess the weaponry and the dedicated warriors to take most of the bad guys in the Mid-East off the board, probably permanently, at least for a century or so.

            What stops Israel is the fear of condemnation by the rest of the world. I can promise you one thing, if Iran or any one of their terrorist fronts ever launches a nuke at Israel, the major population centers of the Middle East will turn into smoking, radiation-poisoned craters.

            And just as the jihadists want the Little Satan obliterated, they are equally determined to destroy the Great Satan.

            Years ago Rush Limbaugh framed the situation perfectly: Where do you begin negotiations with someone whose ultimate goal is your destruction? Do you persuade them to not destroy you for a defined period? After which, comes what? They are still committed to your destruction.

            The point is there is never any advantage in engaging in negotiations with any party whose proclaimed goal is to wipe you and your family from the face of the earth. It is totally, completely futile.

            The ONLY successful response to that situation is to remove your foe AND his family from this planet.

            Brutal? Yes, but as history has shown time and again, it is the only recourse left to those who want to live in peace,free from the predations of the lurking wolves.

            • LC says:

              Ultimately, the question is, “At what cost?”

              Let’s assume for a moment that this happens – we carpet bomb every inch of ISIS controlled territory, killing anything that breathes. What happens next?

              Society has changed since WWII, and the United States in particular holds a unique position due to our economic and military supremacy. The media would find the most gruesome pictures and video possible, showing kids burned alive, a mother’s body shredded with shrapnel from US weapons, a class of young school girls obliterated. This changes the way warfare is conducted, at least when there aren’t enemies on your doorstep. Oh, they’re on our doorstep, you say? Yes, but not with aircraft carriers and tanks, but rather a few cells here and there seeking to cause terror, and -for better or worse- most people never seeing any of it firsthand.

              So these fellow Americans, who never see the horror of terrorism because the proponents of it who are here are few and far between, turn on their TVs and see … literally millions dead. Millions. And just total destruction.

              Do you honestly think most people would cheer that? Or would it be deeply unsettling? A cop shoots a guy under questionable circumstances in Ferguson and look at all the trouble. Millions of people wiped out by the US military would make that look like a picnic, and not just here, but abroad as well. Trade, diplomacy and even military alliances would suffer greatly, as nobody could be seen condoning that. Our economy would take a huge hit. Our ‘moral authority’ would be irreparably damaged, and our religious leaders would be in a bind as this is by no means a ‘just’ action. We’d be, in effect, labeled terrorists, and rightly so since we’re seeking to instill terror in people to prevent them from attacking us.

              The blow-back on the national psyche and our foreign policy would, in effect, but so severe, we’d have ‘won’ THAT fight against THOSE terrorists… and in doing so, lost our ability to tackle the NEXT threat. A threat which is probably now magnified because we’ve just proved we’re utter barbarians and have no qualms killing innocent people.

              Chances are, you may see this as a bunch of liberal claptrap. If so, what do YOU think happens in this scenario? Because there will absolutely be costs. There are costs to not doing this too, but I think they’re less severe by far, again, even ignoring the morality of it all.

              History shows lots of things. It also shows you can never be rid of the wolves. If you torch your own lands to give the wolves nowhere to prowl, have you really won?

          • Poetrooper says:

            Mountain Man, I forgot to be gracious: On behalf of VoV, I’ll accept your apology.

            That aside, we are indeed brothers in arms and while we may differ on the HOW we defend ourselves, I do not believe we have any differences that we MUST defend our flock.

            If you’ve never read my poem, The Sheepdogs, Google it. That poem sums it all up for me. We guard our flocks and we kill every damn wolf coming close with the intent of killing our own, including their bitches and cubs.

            ANY Wolf who seeks to kill us and feed from our carcass is forfeit. Brutal? Cruel? Yes to both; but that is the ONLY way we protect our own loved ones.

            • Jack says:

              whow. You are the originator of “the Sheepdogs”? Very awesome, I use that metaphor repeatedly, never knowing the author. Very powerful truth. My respects, and gratitude sir.

        • Thunderstixx says:

          VOV is right on the money with his strategy for winning the war against the IS. Period.
          William Tecumseh Sherman used that strategy on his march to the sea with good effect.
          It is only total war that will ever convince a tyrant to stop what the fuck they are doing…
          I don’t care what anyone says, the ROE’s that we are dealing with now are making so much easier for the Tangos to inflict the horror of their so called beliefs. There is a YouTube video wit h some IS terrorists being caught by the Iraqi army and they all turn into whiny ass babies…

        • Ex-PH2 says:

          My impression of the ISers is that their method is closer to a swarm of cockroaches than a column of army ants, meaning widely scattered instead of in cohesive organized units.

          That may have changed recently as they acquire stolen equipment, but they aren’t an army per se.

          The problem with cockroahces is that if you spray one or ten with a bug bomb, a few are hit but the rest scatter to hide in the walls. You have to flood an entire building with something that will kill them all and destroy their nests in order to eradicate them.

          So in comparing the ISers to cockroaches, unless something has recently changed, they do not seem like an organized force to me. And like the Viet Cong they will take advantage of their ethnic appearance to hide in plain sight.

          My solution in one of the cheap, crappy apartments I lived in was to indiscriminately spray the roaches and the cracks and crevices in the walls with a degreaser like Fantastik or 409. That worked nicely.

          The solution to ending the ISers and their ravening rampage through the Middle East is to understand that they have female jihadists who are just as aggressive as the men, and that the children as young as 7 years old are being taught in schools that slaughtering someone is okay and that slaughtering Americans is brilliant.

          That means do not discriminate based on who they are.

          Before you get all hinky about this, bear in mind that Hitler’s youth groups did the same things to German kids and Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge employed children to murder their own parents by the millions.

          Just making an observation, nothing else.

  7. Ex-PH2 says:

    Make them fear us? How? One of the IS jihadi said bluntly, ‘We do not fear death. We welcome it. When we die, we will be in heaven.’

    They have only one rule: kill or be killed. The sooner WE, the civilized world, understand that, the sooner we conquer them.

    I said elsewhere I did not consider Foley a coward for what he said. He was a dead man the moment the ISers traded weapons for him. He did know what he was getting himself into, so I do not think he was naive about it, but he was not a coward.

    • Former 11B says:

      They’re full of shit PH2. They’ve barely fought anyone who will fight back and I bet a large percentage aren’t even particularly religious. They’re really just a bunch of needle dicked losers that just cherry pick Koran verses and use them as a phony religious smokescreen to cover the true reasons for wanting to spread so much death and misery. Fuck these pieces of shit, when they get caught in fucking strafing run we’ll see how many of them stand tall and defiant instead of moving to cover.

      • 10thMountainMan says:

        I agree, 11B. I wish I had some S2 on how many of these pricks are zealots and how many are mercenaries for wealthy islamo-gangsters.

      • Ex-PH2 says:

        11B, I don’t argue your point at all. They have not really been tested against anyone except the Kurds, who are now being joined by others who do not want the ISers in their neighborhood.

        But their entire intention is to draw the US into another war of attrition, and you know it as well as I do. Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling that this is exactly what will happen.

  8. AndyFMF says:

    http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2014/08/when-do-you-give-terrorists-exactly.html

    Best idea that I have seen

    “By beheading Americans for simply being Americans – IS is calling America out. We should accept the call – but on our terms. If they want this fight, then we should give it to them.

    The tactical strikes we have been making are tactically important – but the beheading of Americans is a strategic act of PSYOPS, and we should respond in kind.

    The tactical killing by drone, single drops of bombs, etc are good and important too – but we need to make a strategic statement.

    Two things that we can do quickly.

    1. Used to great effect in both of our Iraqi conflicts based on their superb use in Vietnam: B-52 carpet bombing.
    2. A few MOAB will do nicely as well.

    No need for press conferences or other spoken or written responses. Just action.

    After the first flush, keep the B-52 and MOAB going now and then to keep them jumpy – but keep a steady pattern of death from the air from other air assets as well. If it is done in coordination with Syria or Iranian proxies in a temporary alliance of convenience – that is fine.

    We need to accept that the killing that needs to be done in the land between the Mediterranean and Mesopotamia will need to follow more Game of Thrones rules of allies and partnerships than nice things done in Vienna, Brussels, or Strasbourg.”

  9. Spike says:

    “vi faccio vedere come muore un italiano!”

  10. Pinto Nag says:

    As much as the MSM has condemned the use of torture on insurgents by the US, you’d think they’d be all over that angle with the death of one of their own at the hands of the jihadists.

    I may have missed it, but all I hear is crickets.

    • Ex-PH2 says:

      Ditto.

    • LC says:

      Simply put, we expect these savages to torture people. It’d be like reporting that water is wet, the sky is blue and a dog is chasing its own tail.

      A large section of civilized society feels that torture is wrong, though, so when we do it, it becomes news that people want to hear about and debate.

      This isn’t the MSM giving terrorists a pass.

  11. Ex-PH2 says:

    Can you guys tells that I’m pissed off?

  12. 3/17 Air Cav says:

    I for one think this young man was trotted out many times for a “mock” execution. I think it got to point where he knew if he was defiant, he would not be executed. If he condemned the United States, it was over.

    I think he made a conscious decision. Grew tired of the torture. Told them what they wanted to hear and film. Fully knowing what was coming.

    I have nothing but respect for this young man!

    • ExHack says:

      My second guess was that he made that speech to save the life of the other hostage – that they may have threatened to kill the other guy if Foley defied them again.

      I hope and pray that if these guys were to ever get their hands on me, my last words to them and the planet would be: MOOOOOORE BACON!

  13. Thunderstixx says:

    Unfortunately with the current crop of politicians on both sides of the aisle, the flag officers on the JCS and the pussyboy at the White House there is no way in hell that anything close to the real manner of defeating them would ever be used…
    I think that we all know that but accepting it is a bit harder to do…
    This little faggotbreath, dicksucking, shithead, girlyboy will allow the Tangos to run amuck for the rest of his term.
    This shit sucks, but you had better get used to it, it is the way it will be…

  14. Richard says:

    1. you cannot carpet bomb the middle east, it is too big. We did not successfully carpet bomb Hanoi and we had years to do it. It makes big holes for them to take cover in — in short, it doesn’t work, save your money.

    2. We cannot treat the middle east like it was western europe in WW2.
    a. the military is too small and weak
    b. we cannot afford it
    c. we could not possibly get domestic or international support for the operation
    d. the oil producing countries would cut us off completely

    3. we cannot nuke the middle east
    a. see 2 above
    b. see the international treatment of israel and all they did was blow up a few tunnels and drop some bombs in the northern part of Gaza

    4. we depend on the oil producing countries for energy and buying energy from them gives them huge amounts of dollars. We can engineer around that. We are good at shit like that. build some nuclear power stations, stop buying their oil and stop sending our treasure to them then stop trading with them. lock them back in the dark ages. And don’t bury spent fuel in the middle east.

    4a. after we have the plants up and running and we stop buying oil, then

    5. we have good surveillance devices. Treat offensive people in the middle east just like Israel did a couple day ago. Get intel on leadership location and send them to heaven. Stop screwing around with this, make it an industry. Oh, and don’t use little bombs. Soon to be heard on Voice of America, “If you hear that Mohammad is in town, and if you want to live, you need to leave because we have stopped screwing around with AGM-114s. We don’t plan to miss just to avoid a little collateral damage.” Broadcast the plan, make a lot of noise about it. Then execute.

    6. shut down our southern border. period. Make it a death zone.

    7. start building manufacturing plants in the US. Rebuild our chip fabs. Find domestic and foreign sources of raw materials and pay fair prices for labor and materials. If we stop buying stuff from China, what do you suppose will happen to their economy?

    But of course this cannot happen because there are too many people in this country would rather be dead than feel guilty about some asshole who wants to cut their head off but might not get their contraceptives for free.

    (tin foil hat and black helicopter watch firmly in place) Out.

    • ExHack says:

      And too many multinational, multibillion-dollar, allegedly “American” corporations that want to squeeze out a few dollars in labor savings and many more in tax dodges by offshoring the factories.

  15. 3/17 Air Cav says:

    Richard……Just a minor point, concerning carpeting bombing of Hanoi. If the politicians meaning LBJ, would have not restricted the bombing of North Vietnam esp. Hanoi. We could have effectively shut them down in six months.

    • Ex-PH2 says:

      3/17AirCav, you left out the part about bombing Laos.

    • Richard says:

      I was thinking about Rolling Thunder and Linebacker II. I agree with your point that administration interference crippled the execution but I see no reason to think that any current administration could avoid the same and the issues with Rolling Thunder had as much to do with dis-functional DOD and “efficient sortie generation” as it did with LBJ. FWIW, Linebacker and Linebacker 2 were Nixon operations – LBJ wasn’t involved.

      The core issue remains, the bad people in the middle east are spread all over and carpet bombing Damascus or Amman or Baghdad or some square mile in the middle of Syria does not get it done. These people are not the big asshole in your front yard, they are the termite infestation. Different methods are needed.

      Until ISIS reaches the same stage as the NVA in 1973-4, artillery is of almost no use and armor is only slightly more useful. People talk about asymmetric warfare – consider that it costs Hamas about $800 to make a Qassam 3 to shoot into Israel (see wiki). It costs Israel about $50,000 to shoot down it down (2 Iron Dome missiles at about $25k each). Two guys with one AK and one RPG can make life pretty hard for a motorized patrol in an urban area. In the Winter war, the Finns held up entire Soviet divisions with two guys with rifles on skiis. The Soviet solution is not palatable but it worked. I keep thinking about the cost to position and operate an F35 or a Blackhawk into theater compared to one RPG.

      My argument is: eliminate the threat, take away their toys by taking away their money. For chrissakes, it’s OUR money! We give them billions of dollars every year and they spend some of it well, some frivolously, and some to pay for assholes with rifles and RPGs. Most of their investment is in the West and none of them have a military worth the name. Why do we put up with this crap? If we stop buying their oil are they going to sell it to the Russians?

      The Iranians are probably assembling nuclear weapons as I write this. That is a solvable problem. One boomer in the Arabian Gulf. If you make trouble for us or nuke the Israelis then we make you dead. All it takes is the recognition that they intend to destroy our way of life and kill every one of us. They keep saying it and I accept that as a fact. I see no effective internal dissent that will reduce the threat. Q.E.D.

  16. Sparks says:

    There is a propensity among we older Americans to meet threats with force. Hard and harsh force. I will be honest. All the deplomacy, economics and world views of the issue I do not understand. If I did I would have a better job paying a lot more. But, this threat from IS is real. If we do not deal with it where it is, we will deal with it here. We may yet still, since I believe there are sleeper cells throughout America and Europe, preparing and getting ready for the call to act.

    I do not see the problem with bombing the section of Iraq which contains IS into the dark ages. It will send a message. Will it make Muslims in other places even more hateful of us? Probably, if it is possible for them to hate us more, yes. Should we care and fear their retribution, absolutely not. That was the English answer through Neville Chamberlain. Either we take a stand and let the chips fall where they will or wait until it is on our doorstep. You or I will say, I cannot reason with an unreasonable person. When a rabid dog bites me I can reason with it not to bite again but it will. That is what it does. I cannot reason with a rattle snake not to bite me but to simple let me hold him and tell him the benefits of living peacefully in the same yard. He will bite me, it is his nature. IS are not stupid people. Intelligent people who are also completely unreasonable are the worst form of animal to face. I do not have all the answers but I have some.

    My first is to meet force with a greater overwhelming force. Bombs upon bombs that they cannot believe, until…they are gone.

    Will the rest of the free world gasp, perhaps, for a moment. But European allies who live in fear of their own Muslim communities will stop quickly. Will the UN call us names, sure and who really gives a shit about what the UN says or doesn’t say. They are the worldwide version of Al Sharpton.

    Will out own populace be gobsmacked at the photos of burning men, women and kids? Maybe, about as much as they were Foley being beheaded and the attention span they had for that. All it takes is Kim Kardashian coming out with a new line of big, giant, cover my big fat ass butt creams to get them back to tweeting about her.

    I do not pretend to know the answers. But I refuse to be a sheep. I refuse to watch the herd culled by wolves and do and say nothing. If the Muslim IS followers are not afraid to die because heaven awaits them, well, wonderful. Let’s help them get there as fast and as plentiful as possible. Make Allah slow them up at the gates of wherever there are so many and tell them they have run out of virgins but the goats are plentiful, though well worn.

    Not trying to inject humor into something that is serious. Well, perhaps I was. But i read fellow posters above with list upon list of reasons we can’t bomb them, but no answers I can see as to what to do.

    The first and most important problem we have in at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. As long as Obama is in office the radical Muslims of the world know he is impotent and therefore consider America impotent. In effect, we are as long as he is CIC. But they mistake the lack of courage and resolve of the administration as being the same among the American people. That, I believe is untrue and their downfall. There are still enough patriotic, invested Americans who will defend this nation at all cost. Those ill-informed who are wrapped up in their own little world of Twitter and what’s happening in Hollywood are still the minority and I believe even those will defend this nation if the need arises.

    Yes I am very old school. I miss a Congress that was 80% veterans of WWII and Korea. Republican or Democrat, they knew what it meant to fight and see men die for America and many had seen it and lived through the horrors themselves. Now with a Congress of about 20% veterans or less, I see a marked difference in their outlook towards America’s defense and our strategic position in a dangerous world with enemies at every fork in the road.

    Again, to close i do not know the answers. I do not have the writing abilities of VOV, LC or Richard above. But I am a simple man. I tend to see things simply. What I do see though, is that the longer this government takes in finding and reinserting their balls and fortitude the better they make it for IS. Does anyone else believe that radical Muslims the world around are not watching our response to Iraq and Mr. Foley and garnering fortitude towards their own aspirations of destroying the Great Satan and Israel? Does anyone really believe they are kicked back letting IS do the heavy lifting for “the cause” and not furthering their own preparations to attack whomever they consider the infidels in their corner of the world? Does anyone rally believe radical Muslims anywhere will come to a point of “okay we’ve sent our message loud and clear and as long as America leaves us alone, we will leave them alone”? No, that would imply they have and use reason in their thinking. The only reason they use is in battle tactics, political gains, shock factors and so forth. Stand in front of them to talk reason and you will be in young Mr. Foley’s position sooner than later.

    Okay, I’ll stop because I have written a lot and said little I fear.

    • 3/17 Air Cav says:

      Sparks……nice piece of writing. I think Hondo and poet trooper would be proud of you!

      • CLAW131 says:

        Sparks,Roger,am standing by,and will be available if you ever need a good scrounger/supply sergeant for your outfit.

    • Ex-PH2 says:

      I posed this elsewhere.

      This 8-21-2014 article comes from The Blaze:

      http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/21/a-subtle-message-to-isis-from-ticked-off-military-veteran-should-send-a-chill-down-the-spine-of-every-terrorist/

      There’s a video at the end of it. The writer of the message makes some very good points.

      Now, don’t you all think, if push came to shove, an at-home population group of US vets would stand up for their own country?

      Seriously, think about it. And please remember that there is such a thing as karmic backlash: you get what you give out. “As the sowing, so is the reaping.”

      What have the ISers sown besides fear and horror in the Middle East? Of course they met little to no resistance from locals. That is the entire purpose of a blitzkrieg, which is always a surprise attack on the unprepared.

      And it is necessary that you remember that not all people inhabiting countries in the Middle East share the blighted mindset of the ISers.

  17. Tim says:

    So much hero bullshit flows in here. The original intent of the post is lost as soon as one semi-articulated ‘my dick is bigger than your dick’ (vov) comment appears.

  18. nbcguy54 says:

    For those against the “When in Rome” Doctrine as a way of handling ISIS and those like them because of the potential for collateral damage: have you forgot that we still have a few hundred nukes pointed at Russia? Should that point ever come where those keys get turned and those buttons get pushed, there might be a tad bit of collateral damage.
    Get off of your high-horses and start accepting the reality of what’s going on around us. Our willingness to employ nuclear weapons in WWII is the sole reason we’re not speaking russian right now. Think about it…

  19. Grimmy says:

    The current lawfare tactics and strategies forced onto our military over the last generation have served only two purposes.

    1. Ensure that we can not win a war.
    2. Encourage those who would be our enemy to step up and get active about it.

    None of that is accidental.

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