The post in which TAH defends IVAW’s Kokesh

| February 14, 2010

I really hate to do this – defending Adam Kokesh, member of IVAW and congressional candidate in New Mexico is probably my least favorite thing. But, I also hate it when people don’t tell the truth inadvertently or otherwise. Free Republic and American Patriots Against Kokesh have a thread questioning Kokesh’s Iraq vet creds. They both use a copy of Kokesh’s DD214 that I posted last year. That DD214 is one of three in his records – the last one. I posted it to prove he was not a sergeant when he was discharged.

Unfortunately, the amateurs didn’t come to me before they posted the DD214 and Free Republic didn’t link to me so I could help them avoid embarrassment. Here’s the DD214 that proves his service in Iraq.

kokesh-dd214-iraq-service

You’ll notice the requisite medals in block 13, 6 months and 24 days of foreign service in block 12f. I also have the narrative for his Navy Commendation Medal for service in Fallujah. These all came as a result of POW Net’s FOIA to the records center.

Ya know how on television they always tell you tell you not to try stuff you see at home – this is one of those things.

Category: Antiwar crowd, Iraq Veterans Against the War

Comments (47)

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  1. Is Adam Kokesh Really An Iraq Veteran? « American Patriots Against Kokesh | February 14, 2010
  1. OldTrooper says:

    Wel, Jonn, I will agree that they a nuts to attempt to purport that he never served in Iraq. No one that I know questions that and shouldn’t. That’s not the issue with Kokesh.

  2. COB6 says:

    He’s still a douchebag.

  3. NHSparky says:

    True, but why give him any possible avenues for sympathy?

  4. TSO says:

    Lies like those are the things that make him mix Gin and Xanax and store piss in his fridge.

  5. CWO George Samek US Army Ret. says:

    Open Letter To New Mexico Voters

    I ask each of you to vote for the person who not only would work hard for the state of New Mexico, but who also once elected would not bring dishonor to the state. This information contained in my post can be fact checked by you, as I ask you not to take one word of my post as truth without your own personal review and satisfaction that each word is the truth
    I urge each of you to vote for someone who will not only earn those extraordinary benefits by working hard for the residents of New Mexico, but who will also bring honor to the state. Please reject anyone who would bring you dishonor.
    Many New Mexicans have served this country honorably or have loved ones who have been or are currently in military service. Some have made the ultimate sacrifice with courage and no thought to their own welfare. Remember them when you vote.
    You and your loved ones deserve representation by someone who did not leave military service with an ‘other than honorable’ discharge. Showing himself to have even less character and no patriotism after his less than honorable departure, Kokesh then traveled to a US military base in Germany with his partners in cowardice and insurrection, Iraq Vets Against The War (IVAW), to spread his disgrace & dishonor to our fighting men and women by encouraging them to behave as he did – to forsake their commitments and desert during a time of war.
    U.S. Military service is all-volunteer. Kokesh was not forced to enlist … and I’m sure he cashed every paycheck.
    Don’t take my word for it, check out the facts for yourselves. The information is easy to find and only a mouse click away
    .
    New Mexico deserves better
    Thanks for hearing me out.

    George Samek
    CWO US Army Ret.

  6. RaceBannon says:

    No one tried to steal your information. In fact, since you never updated the page where that DD-214 was taken from, it is EASY to think it his DD-214 incomplete.

    When a search for Kokesh and his DD-214 comes up on Google, the DD-214 that is posted on FR is the one that comes up.

    If your page was edited to show there is more than one DD-214 issued for this guy, or if you had filled out the information correctly when you posted the orignal image, there would have been no error, for you, the holder of such documents, would have stated so on your website and those who went to that page would have been able to read it for themselves. Since you left out that information, it is easy for visitors to your website to be misinformed due to this lack of content on your original thread.

    Next time, when someone mines your site, make sure your site explains in English what is what, not just a single page of a single picture and possibly mislead the honest to thinking what you posted was all there was.

    You were trusted as a source and since the page where we got that image from says NOTHING about other DD-214’s, that fault is not with the person who uses the image to raise a question.

    I do submit that I should have posted an obvious link to where I got the picture, that is my fault, however, right clickig on the image shows where I link from to get that image to post.

    And in case you’re wondering, I did discuss this image with several vets before posting it and all had the same opinion I did, not just this old Marine. To try and call people amateurs just because you never inserted correct information in the original thread to tell the full story and now call users of that image amatuers, show that you have an amatuer streak yourself, for if your website has to be explained to what is missing, it is not complete and can, as shown with that image, to be misleading due to lack of adequate content.

    • Jonn Lilyea says:

      Like I said at FR, I knew this was going to end up being my fault. No one asked me about Kokesh’s DD214 even though I have a contact form expressly for that purpose, you didn’t link to me – yet somehow I’m at fault for not telling the world what I have in my files. If you discussed it with other veterans, why didn’t you discuss it with me? This blog is well-known through out the internet as the resident expert on IVAW.

      For future reference, I have hundreds of military records on various IVAW members. I don’t mind sharing, but it’s not my responsibility to update YOU on what I have in my files. If you’re going to write about someone, do what I do – RESEARCH!

      I’m sorry, but you, Race Bannon, are the one who looks foolish. I’m not an asshole, but I play one on the internet.

  7. Maggie says:

    NHSparky – I don’t believe it’s about sympathy. It’s about getting the facts straight to solidify your/our own arguement. You could say ten things against Kokesh that are bad, but if one of them is wrong…that’s the one his defenders will hang their hat on. Lying about him undermines our whole point that he lies.

    Jonn, TSO, COB6, this blog…it’s all about getting it right no matter where the chips fall. Well that and random pictures of hot women, but that aside…..

    Good job.

  8. RaceBannon says:

    Well it may not be your responsibility to update an individual, but if you do NOT post something saying there IS MORE THAN THIS on that page, specifically that there are 3 DD-214’s, this error would have never happened.

    Also, for people to claim this is a lie on my part? Fuck You!

    I posted what was based entirely on that page where I found the image and based on the information on that page:http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=7296

    For someone to stumble upon this, it appears to be a goldmine! And for veterans. it is easy to make a conclusion it is incomplete since we have our own to compare to.

    I’m sorry you’re pissed off, honestly, but next time, make sure your site has correct information on somehting like this. This is the type of error that is an embarrassment to all invovled that wouldn’t have happened if you had complete information on your page, or edited afterwards.

    It is You who posted that image first, what are people supposed to think?

  9. NHSparky says:

    Maggie–which is my point, but it’s certainly not Jonn’s fault that FR (sorry, Race–someone there did drop the ball) didn’t do the research they should have. In fact, Jonn has stated for the record more than once that his FINAL DD-214 does not in fact show all of his service, and that he has used that SOLELY for the purpose to refute Kokesh’s claim that he left the Marines as a sergeant, which he did not.

  10. DanNY says:

    Whoa!
    Calm down there, Race!
    We don’t need any blue on blue here!
    We all knew there might be more to the story so now we know.
    Let’s adapt and move on.

  11. DanNY says:

    And Jonn…

    “Ya know how on television they always tell you tell you not to try stuff you see at home – this is one of those things.”

    OUCH!!

  12. YatYas says:

    Good job, Jonn on doing the right thing even if Kokesh is a shitbird. Now, could you do a powerpoint and give some classes to the MSM on the proper way of covering a story.

  13. RaceBannon:
    As I see it, the error was in that you took second hand information, heresay, rather than rolling up your sleeves, going to work, and using the same source as this blog did- the FOIA. Had you exerted that small effort, you wouldn’t have come off as a whiney boy.
    I know of no blog that will qualify everything with a “This is Gospel, and not to be disputed.” disclaimer. I Reaganize all that I read, hear, or see with, “Trust, but Verify”. Sure helps to keep me out of hot water.

    “Never Forget Ft. Hood Texas 11/5/09!”

  14. TSO says:

    I really don’t get this. Jonn stated explicitely in the first post that he was using that one to debunk the “Sergeant” claim. I fail to see how he needs to link every document there when the others only serve to confuse the rank issue, since in the prior one he is listed as a SGT. And somehow, not linking back, Jonn should have been better at monitoring other sites uses of his bandwidth?

    The logic on that is astounding.

  15. RaceBannon says:

    FRANKLY, the second hand information is information I got from this site

    and long before I got the last two e-mails from John telling me off, I corrected all sites I had posted the error.

    If I base a thread or comment based on incomplete information, there are two parties at fault: not just one.

    If the original post I based my claim on, which appeared to by all accounts in it’s original content to be complete, with zero other explanation that there were mor than one DD-214’s, had actually SAID there was more than one DD-214, this would have never happened.

    “But the whole reason I video’d Kokesh was to catch him calling himself “Sergeant Kokesh”. To his credit, he has stopped that. Below is Kokesh’s DD214 which proves what I’ve been saying the last few years; he’s not a sergeant….{IMAGE}…So that puts that issue to rest.

    Along with his DD214, the Records Center sent the evidence against Kokesh that the Marine Corps used to downgrade his discharge at the hearing he was forced to attend when he was trolling the National Mall in his uniform pretending to be on patrol in Iraq (not that he ever went on patrol in Iraq). I found the evidence to be quite satisfying since it was an article in the Washington Post with pictures – the same article I used to prove his guilt.

    I’m guessing the article is included with his records so that if he ever tries to upgrade his discharge, the evidence for the denial still exists.

    There are two people at fault: ME for not asking more and posting a link WHICH I ALRERADY APOLOGIZED FOR and JOHN for not posting complete information. What I copied and pasted here is the complete wording of that article, found here:
    http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=7296

    Now John wants to claim his work is impeccable? Well, not posting complete information and expecting people to mind read your intentions is quite peccable. If I have to do a complete data mine to see the other DD-214’s, the originator of the thread should post a link so somehting like this should not take place again.

    Notice how the original link I linked from is STILL not corrected, despite the furious e-mails sent out after I apologized for my error.

    My apologies have stopped.

    John needs to make corrections to his own site before someone else sees it and does the same thing,

  16. RaceBannon says:

    And by the way, the person who admitted he was wrong and corrected his mistakes and openly so and even deleted the erroneous thread?

    Now John is threatening to post MY DD-214 in retaliation

    Grow Up, John, we’re on the same side.

  17. Dave Thul says:

    RaceBannon-

    there is an inherent responsibility in questioning ANY veteran-make sure of your source. I have contacted John and TSO numerous times to verify something they said or ask about sourcing and they are always happy to help. Why didn’t you contact John before posting?

    If you question another vet’s service record then you are responsible for what you say. This Ain’t Hell is my trusted source for exposing phony soldiers because they spend the time and effort making sure of what they say, before they say it. Most of their research happens behind the scenes and doesn’t get mentioned in their post, so you have to realize that busting phony vets is not as easy as TAH makes it look. And the few times they have been wrong on something, they have said so right away.

    Bottom line-correct your mistake and then get back to business and make sure Kokesh doesn’t get elected.

  18. Chuck Z says:

    Race, think of it like this:
    You are working on a research paper.
    You go to the library, and find a book that seems to have exactly what you need.
    You then quote from that source, and don’t cite your works.
    Then, your professor catches you for plagiarism. Not only that, but he notes that the source you copied from was incomplete, and did not really cover the information you were trying to research. He states that had you only talked to the librarian, who is always readily available (during library hours) you would have known the source was incomplete.

    Who is at fault here, the librarian, for not seeking you out in the library to help?

    The professor, for catching you using sources without annotating them?

    Or you, for not doing due diligence and ensuring that your sources were complete?

    Google is not research. It gives the most relevant answers to your search term, not the correct one, or even the ones you are trying to find. For instance, if you search the term “I am one sexy bitch” (include the quotes)it takes you to my post written in 2006. Probably not what you were looking to find, but it is the most relevant result.

    YOU used the source without attribution. YOU did not contact the poster to ensure it was correct, met the needs of what you were looking for, and YOU cannot say that anyone else is at fault for YOUR failure to do research.

    It’s like stealing a check, and getting pissed because there’s no money in the account.
    –Chuck

  19. CWO George Samek US Army Ret. says:

    Like they rest of the COGS Convience Of The Government empty camo suitswho litter the ranks of IVAW.. Adam will forever search for a shoulder to cry on as he searches for his lost honor..something he lost when he was reduced in rank from Sgt to Cpl and escorted by the Bull Dog out of sight of true Marines.At Camp LeJeune NC they have coined a new title for rejects like Adam Kokesh..X- Marine..That was relayed to me by a Marine Wounded Warrior on Feb 3 2010 during the GOE Laptops for Wounded Warrior presentation, as I carry Marine WW-2 DNA I will not despute the words of a US Marine.
    Chesty Puller Would Weep.

  20. RaceBannon says:

    Chuck

    I already explained all that. I made a mistake.

    But I used the information that I had on hand and that information was lacking completeness, especially for someone who claimed his work was impeccable. The information on that page, which I quoted here, can easily lead someone to think that was the only copy out there.

    Everyone here recognizes that this point is accurate: THERE IS NO MENTION OF MULTIPLE DD-214’s on that page.
    http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=7296

    It’s time for people to get over it. My apologies are ended. Make sure the information posted is complete or errors like this can happen. Readers are not mind readers, if your website can be easily misunderstood because of incomplete information, that is not the fault of the reader.

    I had to update my website for those very reasons on occasion. Someone took me at my word. They didn’t read my mind nor did they go through all 24 pages to find a more complete source or citation. Or even go to the next page which explained all their questions they poroposed to me.

    Same here. If what you post does not contain complete information on what you are using, when it is found it can cause confusion. In fact, this situation is almost identical to the issue I had once with a fellow Marine. I chewed his ass for his accusations, not realizing that if what he read led him to believe something was innacurate, then the choice of words I used was the problem, not him seeing one single page and going by what that page said.

    From his perspective, he was accurate.

    From my perspective, if he had clicked on the links at the bottom of the page that already existed, he would have seen he was wrong to make the statements he did to me 10 years ago.

    And I did chew his ass for his accusations to me. After a day or two I thought about it and wondered how in the world he thought what he did and wrote him an explanation of how he might have been in error and apologized for my language to him.

    This incident is identical in some ways: I was unaware of any previous posting because there was NO CLEAR LINK to any DD-214 other than the one on the page I found. There was NOTHING in that post indicating there was more information on this site.

    I responded based on the information given me, not knowing there was more to know.

    If someone can’t go to your website and learn something without first learning the entire website first, then it is the layout of the website that is at fault.

    People who drop in are not mind readers, they are humans, and I reacted quite appropriately to what I knew and saw, discussed it with another veteran on the phone while both of us were looking at the document before I posted it. We both saw glaring inconsistencies in what was on that page and asked the same questions based on what John posted.

  21. NHSparky says:

    Race–lighten up, Francis. You used a single point source without any verification, and then want to blame the person who posted it?

  22. Chuck Z says:

    So, since I had a dd214 issued in 1993, and if someone posted it online, despite there being an additional 16 years of service between then and now, you’d accept that at face value for the sum total of my service, without any other research?

    You failed, again, to do research. TAH is a good resource. It isn’t the encyclopedia militaria. It serves as a good staring point for some, and more importantly, it researches and proved the point it is trying to make.

    You took the research they used to prove their point and tried to pervert that into research to prove your point.

    It is not the author’s fault if the reader misunderstands the information provided. It is not the administrators fault if the information you are looking for is easy to find, complete, or readily available.

    You keep pointing fingers. It is everyone’s fault but yours that you used an unofficial, single source to “prove” the point you wanted to make. How do you know TAH didn’t photoshop the document? They are not required to say that a document is or isn’t the only source, or to publish links to any additional documentation they have.

    Do the research. Send in your own FOIA request. That way you’ll get all the copies of all of his DD214s, and not put TAH in the weird position of defending douchebags like Kokesh. Finally, get someone with experience in reading DD214s, especially from the service branch that issued it.

  23. defendUSA says:

    Race-
    Your apologies suck, because you keep on trying to qualify them. If you made a mistake, fine, own it. Be a grown-up. Here is how you apologize when you are an adult:

    “In an earlier post, an error was made about a particular claim questioning a service member’s truth. The resource I cited was correct but not complete. I apologize for the error. Next time, I will be sure to be more thorough. Below is the corrected source.”

    And to Jonn-

    “I am sorry to try an lay blame on you/your website’s resources. I should have emailed you first to inure I had what I needed. I take full responsibility for my lack of diligence.”

  24. Toothless Dawg says:

    Not to let someone else (Whoever) take the blame on this … I used Google in a search for Kokesh’s DD214 and the TAH link came up. I printed a copy and shared it over with folks at the APAK site. I am definitely at fault for not putting together that there were multiple DD214s. It wasn’t until I looked into it further (after it had been shared) that I began putting together the time lines and began to realize there was more to see. Definitely learned a lesson (again) but what’s done is done. I accept the blame for the part that applies to me.

  25. RaceBannon says:

    I guess you are all correct.

    Explaining how this site was incomplete and led me to believe there was ony one DD-214 is my fault.

    Explaining how I corrected all my posts on this,and saying that I took 50% of the blame for it is my fault, too.

    And admitting that someone did the same thing to me on my own website and how I learned to be more carefull when I post links and make comments and explain paragraphs such; my acknowlegement that I learned from that is all my fault, too.

    But most importanatly, apologizing 4 or 5 times already on this thread for not linking and not asking moroe questions is all my fault, to, right?

    If I apologize 6 times for all the things I already apologized for, will it be okay then?

    keep waiting…

  26. Race,

    Major Z and defendUSA have the right of it. You really are coming across as whiney. Man up. Also, your research really shows in continued reference to John — it’s Jonn you silly ass.

    Also, basic research says that if you find something of value at a site, you might look to see what else is there. If you had bothered with even a minimum amount of research, much less due dilligence, you would have found a treasure trove on AK here. You didn’t, so now it’s Jonn’s fault?

    Your powers of research, comprehension, and communication appear to be lacking. Jonn is not responsible for you looking like an ass, you are. Suck it up and deal with it.

  27. RaceBannon says:

    Whatever

    Posting a THIRD installment of a DD-214 without any reference to the previous two??

    and it’s the readers fault for not searching for more?

    I didn’t need anymore info, I was AT THE PREMIER SITE for this information, and from someone with impeccable credentials, don-cha-know…

    Keep waiting…

  28. Then keep waiting. You’ve had it pointed out to you that you’ve failed to do the minimums of basic research and due dillegence, and you’ve failed to step up to the fact that you and you alone are responsible for that. Frankly, you sound like one of those whiney Berekley profs on the far left. If you had offered, per defendUSA just one flat out “I screwed up, sorry, learned, moving on” then there wouldn’t be an issue. The only issue I see now is that there is no way you can or will admit that this isn’t Jonn’s fault as you lack the basic moral integrity and intellectual honesty. When you grow up and become a man about it, you might find a welcome here and even from me. Until then,you are the weakest link. Goodbye.

  29. The Sniper says:

    Dude, if anybody has the balls to call you biased right now they are clearly out of their minds.

  30. Dave Thul says:

    Demonstrator, post.

    The correct way-

    Jonn, I never even caught the spelling of your name until LW pointed it out. I criticized Race for being inaccurate and didn’t even realize my own accuracy needed an on the spot correction. My fault and my apologies.

    The wrong way-
    What the hell Lilyea? Most of the English speaking world spells it ‘John’, so if you are going to insist on being different, then you should have a disclaimer on the bottom of every post. By not putting an explanation of the unusual spelling of your name at the top of every post or on the sidebar, you are actively encouraging people to spell your name wrong. I demand that you take responsibility for me spelling your name wrong in the comment above.

    Right way, wrong way. If you’re waiting for an apology from anyone here, I think you’ll be waiting a while.

  31. racebannon says:

    DaveThul, my point exactly. If Jonn had just said, “Hey, next time make sure there is a link. I would rather you send people to my site instead. Thanks!”

    Boy, would things have been different. However, the accusative language they we did it to lie, people posting here about us lying, and Jonn’s refusal to recognize that maybe…just maybe…it would have been a GOOD IDEA to post links to the other copies of the DD-214’s to avoid this kind of confusion, well, maybe none of this whining would be going on by the supporters of this site.

    By the way, Y’all, did you catch my mistake in these posts??

    The page I keep referring to that has the image I posted online? The one I said should have been updated with links to the other DD-214’s?

    THAT page IS AN UPDATE, THEREFORE THERE WAS NO NEED TO UPDATE THAT PAGE, IT IN ITSELF WAS AN UPDATE.

    So, where were the links to the other DD-214’s in that update?

    Anyone starting to think normally here yet?

    If you post incomplete information, dont be surprised if people only read incomplete information and run with it, especially when this is supposed to be such a supreme superior site with impeccable credentials.

    And DaveThul, go back and re-read what the waiting is all about…it aint me waiting, it is you…

  32. Jonn Lilyea says:

    What a fucking crybaby.

  33. racebannon says:

    that’s exactly what you are

    “WAH! YOU DIDNT LINK TO MY SITE! YOU DIDNT SEARCH MY SITE FOR A SECOND REFERENCE! WAH!!”

    Grow up Jonn

  34. What a fucking opposite day. RaceBannon, your stupidity has actually now got me swinging on the side of TAH on an IVAW issue. Amazing.

    Look. Jonn puts out the site for his own reasons. I don’t always agree with them, especially on IVAW, but last I checked, none of them were “To provide a resource for lazy people to avoid doing their own research, and then to get indignant when called on it.”

    Dude, you are RETARDED. Do you really just randomly waltz across shit on the internet and not bother to check it with anyone before treating it like solid gold? If so, I am a widow of a very important Nigerian businessman who left 10 million dollars in a bank account, waiting for me. But unfortunately, I need an American to access it. I will share the money with you! It will only take a few small processing fees…well worth the bargain…

    You are not “the big man” for graciously condescending to take a whopping fifty percent of the blame. Take some fucking responsibility for yourself, asshole, and don’t blame Jonn because he didn’t tailor his post to you, but instead to his ACTUAL READERS who were well aware of previous posts on Kokesh, whether we agreed with them or not.

  35. Jonn Lilyea says:

    See blocks 12c, 12d and 12e of the DD214 in question and tell me if there’s any indication of another DD214 somewhere. Amateur.

  36. kathy says:

    Wow! Ok, I am NOT a veteran, but having received a copy of Kokesh’s DD214 via email, even I figured out there had to be more to the story even if I don’t begin to pretend to know how to find more info.

  37. Mike Blankenship says:

    Kokesh claims on his blog for Congress that he got an Honorable Discharge…..he’s a liar….no surprise there.

    Army Sgt…..are you ever going to give up on the pukes at IVAW? It’s like being loyal to “Hanoi” John Kerry….it leads to nowhere but down.

  38. UpNorth says:

    AS, wow, spoken like an, well, like an army sergeant. Well said.

  39. OnNow says:

    Jonn wrote: Look, OnNow, will you PLEASE stop spamming us with this article. We’re working on it, we’ve been working on it for weeks. As it was illustrated today, I don’t just post shit without checking it out thoroughly like everyone does, apparently. So just STOP IT! If you’re going to ask questions, please use a real email address.

  40. Attorney for Hire says:

    Race,
    Thank you so much for making this a post of the year contender. And don’t give up, man. Keep slamming your head into the concrete. I just know that you’ll break through. Any second now…

  41. Dave Thul says:

    RaceBammer-

    you misunderstand. I was mocking you for not making a quick and contrite apology and moving on. Instead, you looked for a scapegoat and, finding none, tried to blame Jonn and TAH instead. Get a clue and man up.

    Get back on mission! Don’t let Kokesh get the endorsement and the mission will have been a success.

  42. George Dean says:

    Well, don’t I feel silly. I went looking for the url containing other copies of another 214, from another term of service. But the link is no longer valid. At any rate; If a second 214 indicates he has service in country, I offer my apology on that issue. IMHO he is still a disgrace to the uniform and the American people.