Michael Conley; phony Hamburger Hill hero

| April 25, 2015

Conley - Original

The good folks at Professional Soldiers send us their work on Michael Conley. Next month, Mr Conley will be the guest speaker at a “Welcome Home” event for Vietnam veterans in Bedford, Indiana;

“Conley is probably the most decorated Vietnam veteran in Lawrence County, earning two bronze and two silver stars and a purple heart,” Sorrells says. “He also was in the U.S. Army Special Forces and a Mountain Ranger and was inducted into the Mountain Ranger Hall of Fame.”

I was curious about the Mountain Ranger Hall of Fame and couldn’t find it, but I found this story of humble old Michael Conley;

After more than 40 years of military service, Canton resident and retired 1st Sgt. Michael Conley said he’s honored to be nominated for the U.S. Mountain Ranger Hall of Fame.

Conley, 66, of Canton, joined the U.S. Army when he was 17 years old, in 1966, and retired 42 years later with 41 medals and awards.

“I am so humbled,” Conley said. “I was a solider and just tried to do a good job.”

In Vietnam in 1967, Conley was said to have pulled a solider from an exploding helicopter, earning him his first Soldier’s Medal, according to the nomination letter.

In 1968, he won a Bronze Medal for saving another life during what was called the “Battle on Bloody Ridge.”

Later, Conley would travel to the mountains of Afghanistan and Iraq and spent time in one of the most dangerous areas of the Sunni triangle, known as the “Triangle of Death.”

Conley retired five years ago, and is now being considered for the 2015 Ranger Hall of Fame induction, he said, which is set to happen around July 2015.

The newspapers love him apparently, here’s an article from the Cherokee Ledger-News;

Recounting his first tour from 1967-1968, he read a postcard he sent to family back home, telling them he’d make it home for the holidays from Fort Campbell, Ken. to Bedford, Ind. where he grew up, but in reality, he was headed for Vietnam.

When he got there, he received his first taste of tragedy, losing soldiers who fought alongside him.

In the first year, he was involved in the Battle of Hamburger Hill, and later, the Tet Offensive.

“We were headed to the Valley of Death,” he said. “We got the crap beat out of us, day after day, until after 13 days,
we took the hill.”

During the Tet Offensive, his company was overrun four times in one night. As the night began, they had 100 men still alive. That number would dwindle to 20 by sunrise.

“I was 18 years old, picking up a handset, making decisions,” he said, pausing to reflect. “Then, they made me a sergeant, and I had to start all over again.”

He received a field grade promotion in May 1968, and also was awarded a soldier’s medal for saving a man’s life.

By that time, he’d already been given a purple heart and a bronze star.

The soldier’s medal was earned when he saved a man from an observation post in the middle of the night and crawled him back to safety after the enemy forces retreated. That battle, Conley said, became the cornerstone of his military career.

“From there on, something happened to me,” he said. “I began to believe I was going to live to be 101 years old. I’d done lived through 10 months of this, you haven’t killed me, and I’m not going to get killed.”

The Battle of Hamburger Hill happened in May 1969, Conley was at Fort Bragg – he left Vietnam in July, 1968 – of course, that also means that he missed the Battle of Bloody Ridge in March & April 1969. You’ll notice on his 2-1 that someone lined through the “Wheeled Vehicle mechanic” and wrote in “Rifleman”. Before and after his time in Vietnam, he was a mechanic, which indicates some sort of malfeasance (remember that we used to hand-carry our records to the next duty station in the good old days).

3-11-2015 14-27-10

3-16-2015 12-54-01

Awards, Decorations & Campaigns


According to the dates that are in his records, the NPRC says that he wasn’t on active duty. His Purple Heart and Soldiers Medal were earned in the month that he left the active force. The citation for the Soldiers Medal doesn’t mention a specific event, but it reads like an end of tour award;


His list of awards also records that he has a Ranger Tab and a Special Forces Tab, but according to JD at Professional Soldiers, there are no training records or proof that he attended the schools. Mister Conley, when asked for citations for the Bronze Star Medals and Silver Star Medals can’t seem to find either suddenly.

Conley holds three purple hearts, two silver stars and two bronze stars, one with valor, but his most prized possession is a CIB, a combat infantry badge with two stars. More medals and commendations cover a dresser and fill its top drawer.

Funny, I didn’t see a mention of his time in the Korean War or World War II – the only way he could have two stars on a CIB is if he had served in one of the two conflicts. It looks to me like he tried to alter his records before he left the service, but he is too stupid to do it right.

Category: Phony soldiers

Comments (73)

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  1. jedipsycho (Certified Space Shuttle Door Gunner) says:

    This dude should have had Forgin’ Frank Visconi help him out with his “documents”.

    • A Proud Infidel®™ says:

      He could take some advice from Bernath on how to do photoshop!

      • Green Thumb says:

        And the False Commander Phil Monkress of All-Points Logistics and the Sandwich Artist Alex Popovic to turn his claims into financial gain.

  2. Poetrooper says:

    Damn all if he wasn’t in my old outfit, Headquarters Company, 2d battalion of the 506th Airborne, but a year or so after I was reassigned to the 327th.

  3. Green Thumb says:

    I love the haircut.

    I bet this dude still watches professional wrestling.

    More like “Taintburger Hill”…


    • Sparks says:

      Green Thumb…Since you didn’t write your usual I will. “Everyone wants a CIB but nobody wants to do the infantry thing to get it.”

  4. Bobo says:

    I’m going to make a wild assed guess that it would have been possible back when there were no electronic backups of personnel records that someone could have made some changes to an ETS AAM or ARCOM set of orders to make them look like approved Solder’s Medal orders, then XEROXed the work to make it look a little more legit and shoved it back into a 2-1 file, then made sure that the admin clerk filling out the DD-214 noted that it was a SM. That’s just coming from someone who spent almost 5 years as an E-4.

  5. Poetrooper says:

    I once met a realtor in Bandera County, TX who was a company commander at Hamburger Hill. he attended unit reunions and had rosters of those who had been in that battle. If I can remember his name, I’ll see if I can contact him and run this guy’s name by him.

    BTW, the 151st Infantry is in fact, or was, back in the 70’s, a designated Ranger unit in the Indiana National Guard, so it may be the guy is authorized the Ranger designation and tab without ever having gone to ranger school or serving in any units of the 75th Ranger Regiment.

    • @ POETROOPER, Et Alii:

      That was also Dan Quayle’s outfit, except he didn’t go to Viet Nam with the rest of his unit.

      That unit was later redesignated (or replaced?) by the 75th Infantry Regiment (Airborne Ranger), which had one company assigned to each of the major commands for Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol (i.e., “LRRP”) duties.

      When I was there, “L” Company was the LRRP unit assigned to the 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile).

      They were located right next door to us, and we had adjacent guard bunkers on our perimeter.

      When we had to go, we used the same outhouse, until it was blown up.

      • LIRight says:

        We had some LRRP’s with the 11th ACR, 67-68 – – some of the bravest guys I’ve ever met (a little crazy, too). One was on my job (NCPD) and I swear he was still LRRP’n it throughout his police career. Agent Orange took him a few years back….a good man.

          • Thank you for posting that.

          • LIRight says:

            A little late to be writing more about the link I added above and I’m pretty sure this won’t be read – a couple of things: the author I believe unintentionally misspoke when saying that Frank was an SFC – S/SGT is more likely. I can’t speak to the 5th SFG comment, it seems a mistake unless they were handing out Green Beret’s to honor LRRP’s for their service (I heard a rumor that it happened.) Three tours “in-country” is accurate.

            Frank’s wife was the first friend outside of family to visit me when I arrived St Albans Naval Hospital mid-May ’68….(first time I ever saw my Dad cry was when I got to that hospital) – she brought Frank to visit me at home around 1970-71 and as describe in the narrative; long red hair, scraggly beard, red handkerchief tied to a belt loop – looked like a drug crazed punk-ass hippy and I nearly threw him out of my house until his wife explained he was a Narco.

            I last saw Frank at an 11th Cav reunion at Louisville, KY in 2007 and he looked like hell.

            Within about two years, I became a cop on the same job as Frank.

            Some pretty good memories mixed in with the bad.

    • Bobo says:

      If I remember correctly, it’s also Dallas Dickweed’s old unit.

    • Steadfast&Loyal says:

      I’m not expert on this, BUT if he was awarded a tab for being in this unit it was likely revoked later.

      I think it’s been well established that you have to go through the school to get the tab. Even today soldiers (E1-4) assigned to the regiment as 11B can serve as Rangers but not get to wear a tab unless they go through the school.

      • Martinjmpr says:

        I have a vague recollection that the a verified assignment to a ranger unit during WWII would rate a tab since AFAIK there was no actual “ranger school” at that time. I believe Merril’s Marauders (which was the 5307th Provisional unit, I think?) also rated Ranger status during the war.

        • Charlie Six says:

          Spot on Martinjmpr. AR 600-8-22 authorized the Ranger Tab to be awarded to “Any person who was awarded the Combat Infantryman Badge while serving during World War II as a member of a Ranger Battalion (1st-6th inclusive) or in the 5307th Composite Unit (Provisional) (Merrill’s Marauders).” No mention of service in any Ranger designated units in subsequent conflicts.

  6. I wish I’d been at “Hamburger Hill”.

    But, I would have wanted mine with bacon, cheese, lettuce, and tomato, but no pickles or onions, and a side of French fries, with a large vanilla milk shake, a large root beer, and apple pie for dessert.

    Wouldn’t “Hamburger Hill” be a good name for a fast food drive-in restaurant?

    At Camp Eagle, in the old Republic of Viet Nam, the 801st Maintenance Battalion of the 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile), was located on “Hot Dog Hill”.

    When the NVA blew up the relay that enabled us to listen to AFVN radio broadcasts from Saigon, guys in my unit, the 501st Signal Battalion (Airmobile) set up a radio station which was very popular among the troops, and took requests and dedications.

    But, the radio station was ordered to be taken off the air after someone called in a request for, “THE FOOL ON THE HILL”, and dedicated it to the commander of the 801st Maintenance Battalion.

    • Instinct says:

      Being an artist and all, I always thought a good name for a burger joint would be the ‘Burgers of Calais’.

      Would have three type on the menu: The Divinity – Bacon, Cheddar Cheese, all the fixing; The Inferno – Pepper Jack, Green Chili, and spiced meat; and the Purgatory – plain burger on a bun.

      My sculpture professor rolled his eyes when I told him my idea… I think he was just jealous he didn’t think of it first.

    • Martinjmpr says:

      I think what he meant to say was “hamBURGLAR hill” which is part of the training area for the elite McDonaldland SWAT Team (where SWAT stands for Sauce With Additional Tomatoes.) 😀

  7. AverageNCO says:

    Jonn this guy came across my radar a few months ago. He’s the reason I asked if you knew anyone associated with the Ranger Hall of Fame. Definitely lots of bullshit with his stories.

  8. Sapper3307 says:

    The only thing this guy is missing is a skydiving chicken outfit.

  9. Ncat says:

    “field GRADE promotion” Does this mean he was promoted from SGT to MAJ?

    • Blaster says:

      The story about the Soldiers Medal involving the OP is walking the line too, it is almost a combat action.

      Seems to me

  10. Silentium Est Aureum says:

    Like they’re not even trying anymore.

  11. Skippy says:

    Didn’t camp atterbury in Indiana do some sort of ranger school in the 60s and 70s for the guard ????

  12. Bobo says:

    He’s also wearing a 48th BCT patch in the ACU picture. The 48th is a GA ARNG unit that was in Iraq in 2005. They were one of the first units to be fielded the ACU, and they were also one of the first to document the uniform failures. I’m guessing that that is where the picture was taken. It also lines up with his AC time in 2005. The GA ARNG has a little bit of a history with posers.

    • Old Trooper says:

      I noticed the 48th BCT patch, too. I knew many of those guys from when I was in the 24th. Rock solid unit, even back when most of the NG units were thought of as screw-off units.

  13. Climb to Glory says:

    Jesus Christ. More idiots with lengthy honorable military careers and they flush them done the toilet. This dude is Bernath minus the plane crashing and photoshopping. These turds have been keeping Jonn busy.

  14. streetsweeper says:

    Not sure if this will load properly but, it fits assholes like this muthaforkha.

  15. CLAW131 says:

    Not defending this guy, but the citation for the Soldier’s Medal appears legit.

    The citation lists a date of 19 Dec 67 and involves a helicopter crash near Phouc Vinh. The VHPA site does list a bird from the 162nd AHC that was conducting repelling training on that day (in the area of Phouc Vinh) and suffered a turbine blade failure and crashed, killing all 10 men aboard. The incident report does state the bird burst into flames, broke apart and crashed into a stand of trees.

    IMO, he very well could have dragged the other soldier, who attempted to render aid, to safety after that soldier was knocked down by the heat and exploding ammo. But, YMMV.

  16. streetsweeper says:

    If I recall correctly, every typewriter the Army had in inventory was those Olympic models. Newer typewriter would have made better imprints we see on rifleman..fuck him. Dumbass..

  17. CLAW131 says:

    Geez, I kind of hate it when the newspaper write-ups make it sound like somebody spent 42 plus years on active duty.

    This guy, six years and five months spent going to morning formation and reporting for an active duty work day as a Direct/Depot Support Maintenance Mechanic.

    I had that much time in just eating C-Rats and MRE’s in the field during a 20+ year active duty career.

    So,yeah, all you NG’s and Reservists can beat on me if you want, but at the end of the standard name line on my Retirement Certificate it does say “Regular Army”.

    • Kinda old ET1 says:

      I understand what you mean, whenever someone asks me how long I served, I tell them 20 years. Quickly followed by the explanation that it was just about an even split between active duty and the reserves.

      • Martinjmpr says:

        Same for me. 23 years total service, 12 active and 11 RC. I actually saw more “action” in the USAR and ARNG (3 deployments total) than I did on AD (1 deployment.)

    • Kinda old ET1 says:

      Interesting note on the retirement certificate though, mine says “having served faithfully and honorably was retired from the United States Navy on the first day of March 2009”
      Does not mention at all if it was from active or reserve component.

  18. HMCS(FMF) ret. says:

    I’ll never forget Macho Grande… those wounds run deep…

  19. Staff Puke says:

    So he qualified expert on a M16A1 in 2005? And on New Years Day to boot. Totally legit.

  20. Thunderstixx says:

    These idiot have to know they are going to get caught by the Stolen Valor Fuzz sooner or later.
    The embarrassment they will have from being called out on this will follow them for the rest of their lives.
    It will interfere with their lives and their families lives too when people ask, isn’t that your Dad ???
    Then the people slowly walk away shaking their heads and the kids are embarrassed for just being their kid…
    What a horrible thing to do just for a few minutes of fame…
    And then we wonder why the Kardashian’s are so popular…

  21. SFC Holland says:

    40 years in the Army, from Vietnam to Afghanistan, and he shows up in ACU’s with SSG rank? How’s that possible? He had enough swag in his 2-1 to make promotion several times over, with those silver stars and other bling. Shouldn’t he be a senior NCO at the very least? Or was he too “humble” to accept?

    • Skippy says:

      Check it out there is someone claiming that the link on him Robert links is BS he is claiming to be the guy that they posted a story about today

    • Guard Bum says:

      This guy is a douche bag phoney but having bling or being an outstanding Soldier has little to do with promotions in the Guard. You can only get promoted if there is a slot and I personally know of many fine Soldiers who retired as SSGs or even SGTs.

      There are also a lot of former officers that resign their commissions and return to enlisted status for a variety of reasons. I even know of one guy in my old organization that was a Bird Colonel with a Soldiers Medal for saving some people after a plane crash and he is now an AGR CW2.

      Looking at rank for Guard and Reserve Soldiers is not an indication of their abilities or ambition. Would you move across the state to fill a promotion slot or give up your civilian job so you could spend 4 days getting to and from a 2 day drill weekend? Thats the choice many of these guys have and for many of them rank just isn’t the prime motivator.

      • SFC Holland says:

        Okay, learned something new today. I don’t know how the guard does things. It does seem bizarre to end 40 years as a staff sergeant to me, especially thinking about the retirement benefits.

      • ArmyATC says:

        Kinda late to this discussion. While you’re correct that NG promotions are tied to available slots, it’s also true that deploying NG units take the opportunity to promote everyone in a promotable status during the active duty period where available slots don’t matter. So if this guy deployed at any time during the GWOT, he almost certainly would have received promotion during his AD time.

  22. jonp says:

    Is it possible to have that much bling in his file and retire a SFC after 40yrs or so if the majority is spent in Reserve/National Guard? It would seem to be pretty darn slow promotion to me.

    I’m curious about the second story. He was awarded a “Bronze Medal” in 1968. I wonder if it was any particular Bronze Medal or just one that was laying around.

    Bronze Stars are always referred to as Bronze Stars not Bronze Medals. Am I right in this or was this just more sloppy writing by a reporter that doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground and doesn’t give enough of a shit to get it right

    • Martinjmpr says:

      Jonp: I believe the Army uses the term Bronze Star Medal (BSM) to distinguish it from the Bronze Star Device (BSD) which is used to add subsequent awards to a campaign medal.

      • jonp says:

        Gotcha but it’s always referred to as the full name not just “Bronze Medal”, right?

        • CLAW131 says:

          Yes, that “Bronze Medal” reference is just plain malarkey.

          Much the same as a “Vietnamese Honor Ribbon” is also BS or any number of other “honors” that are made up, but to the civilian community sound official and important.

      • CLAW131 says:

        What you are describing are officially known as Service Stars and are annotated on the DD214’s as per this example:

        Vietnam Service Medal w/3BSS
        National Defense Service Medal w/1BSS

        I also have seen/heard of them being referred to as Campaign Stars.

    • Guard Bum says:

      I don’t know about the Reserves but in the Guard you can only get promoted if there is a slot and some MOSs or locations the slots top out at SGT, SSG, SFC etc.

      You still have to fill MTOE slots but its not like active duty where you can PCS to where the slots are. In my state there were many locations where the senior slot was a SSG and many MOSs with one SFC slot for the entire state, maybe one MSG etc and since a lot of Guard guys hang out forever there is little turn over.

  23. jonp says:

    BTW: Did anybody just contact the Ranger Hall Of Fame and ask if this guy was nominated? I’m assuming Mountain Ranger Hall of Fame and Ranger HOF are the same thing.

    • Shawk says:

      I am the Chairman of USMRA and as of this day we have no nomination prevliges to the Ranger Hall of Fame, Although it is in the works. This guy came to our meeting at Camp Merrill and had his own nomination to the Hall of Fame written out. It was not accepted. I can assure you he recieved no nomination from the USMRA.

  24. 2/17 Air Cav says:

    We need to create a Special Forces Poser Unit of some sort and assign these clowns to it. It will have to include all branches, of course, and be open to women and transgenders. Hell, we could make it a UN unit, since SV is an international operation.

  25. jonp says:

    I was just up the street from SF at Bragg and talked to a couple so that’s pretty much the same thing. I’m going to sport the Tab. I also mastered jumping out of an airplane so I’m a jumpmaster. I know a SEAL. Trident check! I’m originally from VT so Rogers Rangers. I’m a Ranger. Another tab.

    This is easier than I thought

    • @ JON P:


      I thought that was Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys.

      I read about them in the Fourth Grade.

      Major Robert Rogers and his band were from New Hampshire.

      When I arrived in the old Republic of Viet Nam, I and all other arriving United States Army soldiers were issued several wallet cards, among them, a copy of “STANDING ORDERS OF ROGERS’ RANGERS”.

      Here’s the URL where you can see a photograph of one side of the copy that was issued to me:


      To see the rest of the “STANDING ORDERS” printed on the other side of that wallet card, just click on right hand side of that picture.

      To enlarge the photographs, so they’re easier to read, just click on the pictures.

    • When I was a young “Army brat” growing up at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, I never heard any mention of something called, “Special Forces”, even though I would see their demonstrated skills publicly displayed on Armed Forces Day.

      Nobody wore a green beret, for it had not yet been authorized.

  26. Craig Payne says:

    I never saw that card when I got to VN.
    and I got there in 68.CAM RON BAY

  27. MAC(SW) says:

    Just an FYI, I’ve spent the last couple of months researching Mr. Conley seeing as how he’ll be visiting my hometown on the 9th of May for the Vietnam Veterans ceremony.

    Just a few notes on top of what has already been posted:

    #1 – I contacted the USARA RHOF (United States Army Ranger Association Ranger Hall of Fame) Nomination Coordinator, Mike Ranger, and he told me that Mr. Conley is not a current nominee nor has he EVER been nominated for the RHOF. He also made it plainly clear that the U.S. Mountain Rangers are NOT affiliated with the RHOF nor do they have anybody on the RHOF nomination board.

    #2 – Mike Ranger also told me that I was “one of many” that had looked into Mr. Conley’ claims.

    #3 – it turns out that Mr. Conley was a tabbed Ranger and spent time as an instructor it was never at regiment.

    #4 – As per another 2-1 section, he is shown as an Instructor as an E-7 and then the next line down reads AWOL. The next line down has him back as an instructor but at the next lower pay grade.

    The thing that really brought him to my attention was the article that was printed by our local paper mentioning that Mr. Conley might be one of the most decorated soldiers from Indiana. So, I looked for info about him and could find almost nothing until I really started to dig, then it all started to come out.

    If you read the 4 or 5 news articles from his adopted hometown and cross reference the dates of the battles he says he was in the RVN vs. His FOIA available record you’ll quickly realize he’s not being truthful. Dig deeper and you start to find A LOT of other problems. We know that he never went to the Q Course but he claims that he “served with the Special Forces and wore the Green Beret during that time frame. It was allowed then but changed sometime around 1990”

    So, by being a support guy with group back In that era, does that mean that you are also authorized to wear a Special Forces Tab and a full Flash?

    His Facebook page profile picture is of him in uniform. By his own admission it’s from the mid-1980’s. He’s wearing a Green Beret with a 10th SFG Flash and an SF Tab. He never went to the Q and nowhere in his record at the archives does he appear to have qualifications that would allow him to be grandfathered allowing him to wear the SF tab.

    If you want to read the articles for yourself, Google search: “First Sergeant Michael Conley”.

  28. Dustoff says:

    In a recent development he is also found to have served as a “canteen commando” at CIF.

  29. Old 1SG, US Army (Retired) says:

    Timeline for service adds up — FAIL

    Earned a CIB as a non-infantry — FAIL

    Ability to correct a bonehead news reporter — FAIL

    Successful poser — FAIL

    A real sh*t bird — PASS

  30. @ Shawk, We need to link up. Please go to our website and hit the contact link and send us your email address. We have a few questions for you.

    @ Mac(SW)
    Conley’s records are a real bad work of fraud. And we don’t grandfather anyone into Special Forces. Michael Conley is nothing more than a walking talking bottom feeding fraud.

    Team Sergeant

  31. MAC(SW) says:

    Team Sergeant –

    Yes, yes they are!

    To clarify the “grandfathered” comment; I probably should have used a better term. I was referring to the men who served in the RVN alongside an ODA for 120 days or more and had a infantry MOS and how they earned their right.

  32. MAC(SW) says:

    As planned, Conley showed up in Bedford to speak at the Vietnam Veterans Homecoming Ceremony. A very nice ceremony except for the elephant in the room being you-know-who…….

    The meaty details. He was sporting his dress blues minus cover but just to make sure that everybody knew, he wore his metal Special Forces pin over the top of his Ranger pin. I thought the SF tab was supposed to be worn on the pocket flap…….but the best (worst part), both of the pins were sitting right on top of a Triple CIB. That’s right, a triple! Only 325 have been awarded, EVER. And guess what? His name isn’t on that either.

  33. MAC(SW) says:

    Just to clarify the criteria for the CIB. As per AR-600-8-22, there are only a maximum of (3) awards of the CIB authorized. There are only (4) qualifying periods that it can be awarded for: WWII, Korea, Vietnam & GWOT.

    Unless he’s capable of time travel or he’s older than he looks AND his service record has been redacted to remove service in Korea, he’s only checked off (2) of the (4) periods. Shocker, I know.

  34. Jarhead says:

    Just to toss in a little update. A 20 year retired Navy vet friend of mine advised me Conley has hired attorney Brent Steele of Bedford to represent him. How is it that a former military hero needs the services of a civilian attorney? Additionally, VSO rep Baugh advised “No Comment” when asked about allegations. Now the PC manipulators are trying to make this appear to be an organized effort to prevent Baugh from winning the Mayor’s seat. Can we say “Distract them from the real issue?” Need more facts? The only VFW post in Lawrence County to take a vote on whether to attend the RVN dedication service was in Olitic, located in county. Their vote on whether to attend as a group was a NEGATIVE. What a surprise! Keep an eye on the Bedford Daily Times Mail to realize more is coming from this matter.