Army moves to Hollow Point Ammo

| October 17, 2018 | 52 Comments

kel tec 2k

Poetrooper joins us this morning with some thoughts.

I missed this back in February when I was engaged in that damned radiation and chemo therapy to kill the devil tumor in my throat. I suppose I shouldn’t say “damned” because together they kept me alive enough to still pound this keyboard although I could still be classified as WIA from friendly fire. Anyhow, I just ran across this article while surfing for accessories for the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 9mm carbine I bought a few weeks ago. It’s a sweet little piece that takes the same mags as my Beretta 92. And already having a bunch of those and a ton of stored 9mm, both ball and jacketed hollow point, it was a no-brainer addition to ol’ Poe’s armamentarium that lets me reach out beyond pistol range with a 9mm hollow point and touch bad guys with more muzzle velocity and more foot pounds of energy on impact, making it a more memorable experience for them; which is also the point of this move by the Army, making a close encounter with our bold warriors a more memorable experience for these unlawful combatants we face around the globe.
9mm mags
This is a very informative article, with lots of links on the legal issues surrounding the Army’s decision to begin issuing hollow point rounds for use in combat. Like most folks, I’d always thought any type of hollow point ammunition was banned by the Geneva Conventions although I’d also heard that proscription applied only to use against signatories of that treaty. As it turns out, the military legal eagles have finally stifled their reluctance to ratify that exception and the Army, and I assume the other services as well, will finally have pistol ammunition that affords a greater chance of killing or disabling an enemy contender. All I can say is, “It’s about frickin’ time.” Here’s the article from earlier this year:

US Army Adopts hollow-point ammo M-17 M-18

If Jonn covered this while I was MIA, please forgive an old man’s duplication.

Thanks PT, nothing to forgive and it’s great to have you back.

Category: Army News, Guns

Comments (52)

Trackback URL | Comments RSS Feed

  1. Jay says:

    That KelTec is a good little piece of gear. I’ve got one chambered in .40 that uses the same mags as my Glock 23. I’ve got one stuffed in my INCH bag with a couple mags. Not bad

    • LIright47 says:

      The 23 is the best weapon (handgun) I own. Just love it!

      We both made the right decision.

      • 2/17 Air Cav says:

        The KelTec looks like a nice piece and it has had great reviews. For under $500, the price is attractive as hell. I’d love to hear about its drawbacks and limitations from someone who has had one for a while and put at least 500 rounds through it.

        • Jay says:

          I’ve put about 250rds through mine so far. No complaints. If I can say any limitations, it does feel a bit “flimsy” in regards to the trigger/trigger guard as where it’s plastic and feels like it could break at any time. Overall, it’s a sturdy piece. Trying to get any type of stock weld is a PITA but as a pistol caliber carbine i’m not looking to make a long range sniper shot. It’s got a bit of a rail system on it so you can add some accessories if you’d like. Haven’t full on torn it apart yet but running a few patches through after each round of shooting makes it pretty easy to clean. If you can pick one up for under 500 (I got mine on GunBroker for 375), i’d recommend it.

        • Hondo says:

          Don’t own one, but did a bit of research recently when I was considering getting a 9mm carbine.

          Only knock I saw on it was that the sights weren’t very good. Otherwise, the reviews seemed to consider it a nice piece of hardware.

          • 2/17 Air Cav says:

            Thanks for the feedback.

            • 2/17 Air Cav says:

              I have no problem with plastic. My Army M16 had “Mattel” stamped on it.

              • SFC D says:

                My M16 in basic training (1987) was stamped “GENERAL MOTORS, HYDROMATIC DIVISION”

              • Messkit says:

                2/17…no it didn’t. Unless you were being a smartass, Mattel never had a single thing to do with the development, manufacture, assembly, or distribution of the AR15/M16 series of rifles.

                Ever.

                This is one of the most persistent M16 rumors, of all the rumors made up of whole cloth about the rifle. The other, was the rifle was made to only wound, not kill, because it takes out two other Soldiers to remove the wounded one from the firefight. Horseshit. Would you, seriously, accept a weapon and happily trot into a hot zone, that cannot kill your enemy…who most certainly has a very death capable weapon issued to him?

                Of course, there is still the “..you only need to get close with a .50 cal, because the pressure from the bullet passing by will rip off arms and kill..” Tell that to troops who have been close to tank and artillery rounds screaming in…because you can, they’re not dead.

                If you were joking….sorry. Yuge pet peeve with me.

      • Jay says:

        I love my 23. My usually CCW piece. I have a 43 that I stuff in my pocket when I attempt to go ‘casual’.

    • Ex-PH2 says:

      Excuse me, but is that gun supposed to fire backwards, too? Is that why it’s bent in half?

      Gee, you could expel ammo right over your shoulder, if that’s the case!

    • The Other Whitey says:

      Must be nice. No cool new pistol-caliber carbines for us in the Soviet Socialist Republik of California.

      I’m seriously hoping that the Gorsuch-Kavanaugh court takes that look the lefties have been dreading at this state’s gun laws.

      • Ex-PH2 says:

        I’d like to know why, when Illinois is such a stiffnecked bunch of desk lizards about guns, people can still own them as long as they follow the rules, and there are no bans on ‘TYPE’ or ‘STYLE’ of gun (except machine guns), as long as you go by the book?

        But you guys can’t do any of that? Huh.

        • USMC Steve says:

          Ex-PH2, this will further transmogrify you: If you belong to an accredited historical reenactment group in the state of Illinois, you can own just about any weapon you want as long as it is proper for the time periods you portray. I bought a Browning Automatic Rifle from a guy who lived at the time in Chicago, and he told me this.

          • The Other Whitey says:

            Have you seen the Ohio Ordnance Works HCAR? A modernized BAR. Also not available in California.

            • E4 Mafia For Life. says:

              At a local gun shop in The People’s Republik there is an Ohio Ordnance Works 1918A3 BAR CA legal for somewhere around $4K ‘ish.
              I don’t want to take on the 30-06 caliber.
              And the thing is a beast.
              Neat firearm though.

            • OTW; We had the Browning Bar’s, M-1 Garands, M-1 Carbines and Navy Thomas subs aboard the OKIE 3. When we were out to sea, we qualified from the fantail shooting at empty B size food cans from the Galley. Most of the Marine troops we had with us didn’t know what kind of weapons we were shooting. We had an Honorary member when I was in the ERFD Hose 1 who was a BAR man during the battle of the Bulge and while his company were in their holes, a German skier skis right through them and everyone opens up and didn’t hit the guy and Pete aims his Bar at the skier as he was now farther away fires a couple of rounds and the guy goes down. Pete says that he really felt bad for the guy when they took his wallet and saw a picture of his wife and kid. Just one of the things he used to tell us at our Memorial day family get together after the Dept Parade.

        • Ex-PH2 says:

          Aha! So, if I go to the Renaissance Faire as a Pirate Queen (and there were a couple of women pirates in the 17th century), I could carry both a sword (as long as it’s tied and secured) and a flintlock pistol!
          Glad you told me that! Thank you, USMC Steve.

        • ArmyATC says:

          Once you get out of the blue nosed north, Illinois is pretty red. Southern Illinois detests the liberals in the capital. It’s their representatives and votes that keep the state from going full potato.

      • SGT Fon says:

        you might want to take a look at TNW Firearms Aero survival rifle. got mine in, traded out that evil pistol to a nike swoosh stock here in NY and i am using the 10mm for deer this year (headshots at less than 30 yards)here is a link for you to drool over

        https://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx.htm

  2. LIright47 says:

    I guessed the reasoning for the FMJ was our participation in past NATO – Geneva treaties and agreements as mentioned above.

    Back when I carried a Sig Sauer for a living my department in the mid to late 80’s issued us HP ammo. Prior to that, we carried lead HP ammo in our .38 cal revolvers.

    I’ve continued with Federal Hydra-shoks in my personal Berretta and Glock pistols.

    Plainly, HP’s are more efficient for their intended purpose.

    • LIright; Did the county use .38 S&W Mod. 10’S back in the 70’S? The Brink’s shooting team used to get invited to the Counties S. Hempstead range shooting comp. and I remember we all had those leather 6 round drop pouches on our belts. PD. matches we shot in New Jersey had the Officers using semi autos and they had to wait for us to fire 12 rds in 25 seconds with our wheel guns. Wasn’t till right after 9/11 did we switch over to the S&W Mod. 4046’S in .40.

      • LIright47 says:

        Jeff…how are you?

        You’re bringing back some very fond memories.

        I still think my old S&W mdl. 10 is the sweetest shooting handgun I own. Smoothe as silk and even with fixed sights, it was very accurate! I also still own my off-duty carry S&W mdl. 36.

        I have my .38 cal. drop pouches somewhere but when we moved to the revolver speed-loaders we finally jumped into the 20th century, lol.

        As I recall we went semi-autos (Sig 226) in the mid-80’s…a second jump my department made into the 20th century!

    • UpNorth says:

      My department issued FMJ .38 rounds to go with the Smith & Wesson revolvers. One of our officers shot an armed robber who was running away from him, shooting back over his shoulder. The bullet bounced off the guy’s head, causing him to fall over, disoriented and somewhat miffed.
      Then we went to +P JHP rounds for the wheel guns.
      When we transitioned to the Sig P226, we were issued JHP’s in .40.

  3. David says:

    Believe I read once that the Geneva accords banned the use of HPs between organized national uniformed services in a declared war. We haven’t done one of those since, what, 1945? Any of the legal eagles able to confirm about the Accords?

  4. I see the Army is going to switch over to the 6.5MM in their rifles replacing the 5.56 Rd., and the 6.5MM Creedmore in their new Saw’s. Can anyone tell me if the 6.5MM and the 6.5 Creedmore are the same or are two different rounds. Read it on online Army Times but unclear if they were two types of 6.5’S.

    • SSG Kane says:

      There are two different 6.5mm rounds, the creedmoor and the Grendel. The Grendel is more of a short range hunting round comparable in range to the 5.56 while the creedmoor is more comparable with the 7.62 with respect to range. Based on what I’m reading the DOD is looking at the creedmoor to ease logistics rather than running a mixed environment. The army is also looking at a careless 6.8 mag round, but I think that’s a whole lot of dreaming.

    • David says:

      Actually there are a whole boatload of 6.5s… a 6.5mm Carcano was used on JFK and the hallowed 6.5×55 Swedish is probably one of the 10 best cartridges ever invented. W.D.M Bell used to use a .264 Rigby on elephant. Ballistically better than the equivalent weight .30s and easier on the shoulder.

    • 26Limabeans says:

      The Nov issue of American Rifleman has an article comparing the 6.5 Creedmoor and Hornady 6.5 PRC to the .308 Win.
      Yeah, I’m confused.

  5. Slick Goodlin says:

    Thought this was interesting:
    As long-time TAH reader and Army Veteran I was interested in this development on Army ammo.

    However, I am also an employee a California County Government Agency. I was reading this story during my break-time at work on my Office workstation.
    When I clicked on the link I got the following pop-up:

    “Sorry, you don’t have permission to visit this site. Website blocked
    Not allowed to browse Weapons/Bombs category
    You tried to visit:https://loadoutroom.com/44886/u-s-army-adopts-hollow-point-ammo-m-17-m-18/

    This is from the same county that sent me memos from our County Executive urging me to support County LGBT celebrations and including hotlinks for our County Libraries, “Gay Drag Queen Storytime Hour”.

    • MSG Eric says:

      County Libraries, “Gay Drag Queen Storytime Hour”.

      Why are they discriminating against the Non-Gay Drag Queens and their storytime hour?

    • Ex-PH2 says:

      Discrimination!!!!

      Blatant discrimination!!!!

      I object vehemently!! If your countyr can afford to waste funds for viewing drag queens, but not informational material that is pertinent to your job, they are engaging in discrimination!

      Why are they not linking to male strippers, too? What’s their excuse for that?

    • Mason says:

      Which is why when I worked in local government, I used my own devices.

      It took weeks of back and forth for our detectives to get access to backpages for legitimate prostitution investigations. I always wondered why they’d trust us with deadly force and the ability to deprive people of their civil liberties, but God forbid you web surf with impunity!

      • 11B-Mailclerk says:

        Many of those sites have the IT equivalent of AIDS.

        If your shoot some perp, the IT guy doesn’t have to rebuild the infrastructure. If someone decides to “research” some slime-pit site, the whole department could wind up with a case of Ransomware.

        Yes, there are ways to allow you to do the job with relative safety. But that takes more work and budget than the bureaucratic “no”.

        Dedicated research machines on cellular modems, that never connect to the prime network, that are re-imaged/reloaded every shift, would be one solution.

  6. OC says:

    Jeff, the Creedmoor is slightly longer (.04?) so I would imagine not interchangeable.

    I’m no expert, nor do I portray one on TV. So take my HO for what it’s worth.

  7. Docduracoat says:

    The Kel etc is an interesting folding rifle.
    As a lefty,I cannot shoot it properly as it spews gas into my face out of the election port.
    I have to shoot it from the hip sighting with the laser when I use my buddy’s kel tec.
    It was The Hague convention, not the Geneva convention that outlawed expanding ammo.
    The United States never ratified The Hague convention, even though we have observed its terms.
    As you noted it only applied to uniformed armies of signatory countries.
    Irregular troops are fair game.
    The legal thinking is modern hollow points are not intended to increase suffering.
    So we can use them and still be in compliance.

  8. 26Limbeans says:

    I can just see the headline:
    “Army to use Cop Killer bullets”

  9. Cowpill says:

    Got this from the KEL TEC webpage

    “IMPORTANT SUB-2000 SAFETY RECALL NOTICE

    We have recently identified an issue with the heat treatment of certain steel tubes received from a third-party supplier from which the barrels for a limited number of Gen 2 SUB-2000 rifles were manufactured. This could potentially cause the barrel to rupture when a cartridge is fired and could result in serious personal injury. The safety of our customers is our primary concern, so Kel-Tec has voluntarily initiated this recall because of the possibility of a barrel rupturing.

    This recall only affects a portion of Gen 2 SUB-2000s that were manufactured in 2017. Gen 1 SUB-2000s are not affected.

    To check if your firearm would need to be sent in for barrel replacement, please follow this link: SUB-2000 Recall

    All costs associated with the recall of your firearm shall be covered by Kel-Tec.”

    • Poetrooper says:

      Bought mine from Bud’s online figuring they wouldn’t sell me one on recall. Checked mine out as soon as it arrived. I’m in the clear.

      Bud’s is a good place to look if you’re shopping for a weapon. Great pricing and fast service.

  10. David says:

    One of my favorite quotes from Jonn: 9mm is only good for killing Europeans.

  11. Sapper3307 says:

    A have two cans $$$$$ of 7.62 NATO M188LR ammo in the mancave.
    It has the Sierra match king sitting on top with what is considered a hollow point by some.

  12. R. says:

    It’s a sorry day when the Army adopts hollow points, a slippery slope to the day when armies start issuing soft points and exploding bullets. Lots of extra suffering and death. All those U.S. soldiers who survived being wounded by rifles over the last 100 years would be dead or missing a limb if it weren’t for this de facto and de jure prohibition.

    • OWB says:

      Given to hyperbole much? “All those U.S. soldiers who survived being wounded by rifles over the last 100 years” were saved because our enemies were always sooo concerned with following the rules, right?

      Probably not.

  13. Kenneth Taylor says:

    The 9 mil,H.P. Browning is a great hand gun and along with the hollow point it becomes a lethal weapon very reliable and a real baddy stopper.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *