Comparing Trump’s non service to McCain and Mueller’s actual service

| March 20, 2019


A rant by our own Veritas Omnia Vincit that I have been slow to get to. Doesn’t matter if I agree or not, I’ll post, but I’ve been swamped with guest links and posts of late. This is a very good thing, if a bit annoying to to those submitting and waiting. Please be patient and I’ll get to you in turn. Anyway, here’s VoV:

Veritas Omnia Vincit
Prior Honorable Service Versus Today’s Reality, or Should Veterans Honorable Prior Service Give Them A Pass For Life?
I’ve read some headlines lately and a few memes as well on the Book of Faces whereby we are led to believe because McCain and Mueller served honorably and perhaps heroically that they are better men today than Trump who was medically disqualified from serving.

It’s interesting to me because it’s largely written by people who in the recent past hated both of these men for different reasons while enjoying Trump’s largesse as a donor to Democratic candidates. Is it another sign of the hypocrisy in the media so readily on display today, or just another sign that the politics of division are willing to use any methods to keep the base fired up and in-line? Or some of both?

It raises an interesting question, what does it mean to be honorable and to have integrity in terms of being a veteran and in terms of being a decent civilian citizen of this great nation. Honorable military service, even heroic military service is simply a reflection of what you did at that moment while serving. Quite often it’s reflective of that individual’s inner nature, someone who will step up and go beyond what’s needed and someone who can be relied on to do what is right in a moment of extreme difficulty and personal danger. It’s not always a perfect indicator though.

John McCain is a great example of someone who did something extraordinary during his service, he was given an opportunity to get out of captivity and come home long before many others would be afforded such an opportunity. He refused that opportunity and had the shit beaten out of him regularly until such time as he was no longer able to raise his arms above his shoulders. That’s a helluva of a tough choice to make in that moment and I’m not certain how many others would make the same choice to stay and take a beating or go home and hope those left behind get their chance. I’ve always had a great deal of respect for McCain’s fortitude in that moment and the courage he showed in making that choice. However, McCain revealed more of his nature when caught up in the Keating five scandal in my opinion. That moment showed a far less courageous spirit and a far more selfish, greedy bastard willing to skirt or break the law to further his own wealth and take advantage of his position. His subsequent exoneration in the Senate was largely a pass given to him for his prior service and a simple recognition by his peers that he did get caught with his hand in the cookie jar but censuring him would open the door to censuring many, many others who were doing similar un-ethical conduct in their financial and legislative affairs.

There are also many other reasons why McCain was not all that popular, but the simple point is that regardless of how honorable or heroic his service was his civilian life was infinitely less so.

We all know Mueller’s Vietnam record, or we should, Bronze Star for Valor in action shot through the thigh and airlifted out for medical treatment. No doubt honorable, commendable, and heroic service. His post service career as both a civilian litigator and federal prosecutor is both honorable and distinguished. He’s maybe not a choir boy, but there’s not much in the way of dirty laundry to find in his career prior to serving as special counsel. Since that time there have been dozens of leaks from that office, along with multiple arrests and prosecutions of Trump associates. There’s been a fair amount of FBI “appearance of bias” in some of what was leaked, whether actual or not that sort of bias places a tainted aroma on that investigation and the motivation behind the initiation of the entire special counsel process.

How history will remember him after 2016 remains to be seen.

Which brings us to Trump, is he a lesser man for not having chosen military service as the memes and subsequent headlines imply? Are we to make less of our fellow Americans for their lack of military service? Trump, for me, is exactly what he appears to be which is a rich, entitled white guy who has managed to live his life in service to himself.

Am I supposed to consider he’s not a decent man because he didn’t serve like McCain and Mueller? Am I supposed to infer he’s a shit bag as a consequence of that lack of service?

I’m extremely uncomfortable making those kinds of judgments, there is no requirement to serve these days. There is no obligation to serve and the government doesn’t even truly promote service as an admirable action by citizens.

Most of you know I was not, and to a large extent am still not, a fan of Trump.

I don’t like when men like Trump, who’ve never served a day in their lives (Ted Nugent this means you as well you asshole) try and tell me today what a great soldier they would have been back in the day. Easy statement to make without repercussion at an age when no one wants you to serve. You did what you did, shut the fuck about it and move on.

But I don’t think Trump is inherently a bad guy because he didn’t serve, that he is to be looked down upon for his lack of service. He’s an American who has paid more in taxes over the years than Mueller and McCain combined. He’s an American who has contributed to the GDP of this nation in more substantial ways than thousands of small business owners. He’s an American who acts differently, thinks differently and behaves differently than I do but has chosen to serve the nation as its chief executive.

The positive aspects of his presidency go largely unreported while the slightest gaff is given hundreds of hours of airplay. Can you imagine the reporting if Trump mis-spoke and said we have 57 states? It would be non-stop repeated until the day Trump died. Obama did that very thing and it was reported quietly and dismissed.

Once again we see the media’s hypocrisy and motivation to prove the Orange Man Bad as accurate in any way possible.

Prior service that is honorable and distinguished is no guarantee of decency in perpetuity, lack of service is no indicator of lesser character today. Your actions today make you who you are now, regardless of what you did, or didn’t do in the military previously. Unremarkable service men and women go on to do great things later in life, remarkable service men and women sometimes do nothing positive after their service.

In closing, your service is a part of what you are, but it isn’t all that defines you nor should it be all of what you are or are not. What you do each and every day during and after your service continually redefines and exposes your character and integrity.

We can discuss how Trump’s actions today define his character, but enough with the nonsensical comparisons of past service by others. Stick to what matters today and what you can prove and stuff the other bunk where it belongs.

That’s it for my rant.


Thanks VoV, for your thoughts and patience.

Category: Guest Post, Politics, Trump!

Comments (147)

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  1. NavyEODguy says:

    Couldn’t agree with you more. I had a great deal of respect for McCain. As time went by and his political antics increased, my respect went down. Finally hit rock bottom.

    I had to break out a backhoe to dig the bottom out, so my lack of respect could go lower after the revelation of McCain & the “dossier” on Trump.

    • Perry Gaskill says:

      Part of the problem is that the news media tends to have the attention span of a Beagle. Understanding the significance of the Steele Dossier, the recently revealed role Senator McCain played in using it to trigger the FBI/CIA/NSA intel report of January 2017, and then the Mueller investigation is rarely mentioned in news stories. Most are now chalking up President Trump’s recent anti-McCain tweets as picking on a heroic dead guy because of Trump’s “McCain Derangement Syndrome” going back to 2008.

      Something interesting to consider is that the Mueller investigation is likely coming to an end. There’s also a distinct possibility that any Russian collusion will amount to nothing more serious than that Trump once bought a piroski at a food stand in Brighton Beach. If that turns out to be true, what’s going to happen to a howling press pack who find themselves facing a level of embarrassment not seen since they said Hillary Clinton would win in a landslide?

    • Lloyd G LeCain says:

      Have any of you listened to the traitorous broadcasts he made while a pow in the Hanoi Hilton and getting special treatment while his bothers POWs were getting tortured and starved by Cuban interrogators. He also dumped his wife when she got injured in car accident and married that blond whiskey drummers daughter. The man had no soul

      • Eo says:

        There is NO evidence he received special treatment, or was a traitor. The other POWs he was with have always said he acted honorably. Most POWs participated in North Vietnamese propaganda of some sort because they were being starved and tortured.

        Criticize his policies all you want, but calling his conduct as a POW into question is baseless and disgusting.

        • Max says:

          Never left the states while in the AF but here is my take on POWs: the only people who can judge the behavior of a POW are other POWs.

          • Jay says:

            THIS. I commented somewhere else about the only people that can judge McCain’s actions while a POW are the ones that were THERE with him. Everything else said, written, or broadcast is just conjecture or hearsay.

            • Eo says:

              I’m just amazed that people are acting as if he willingly did the propoganda videos, as if any of them know anything about experiencing torture. You don’t lose the ability to raise your arms over your head if you were having a nice time in captivity.

      • OWB says:

        I didn’t particularly like the man, but certainly would take the word of his fellow POW’s, some of whom opposed him politically, over unnamed conspirators any day of the week.

        Get a grip. None of us knows what happened other than that it was thoroughly unpleasant. If his fellow captives say that his conduct was acceptable, that’s all I need to know.

        You want to think otherwise? It’s still a free country, but anticipate that the rest of us may point and laugh at you when you express it.

      • timactual says:

        No, I have not listened to any “traitorous” broadcasts, and I doubt you have either. Put up or shut up.

        • Fyrfighter says:

          Without clear evidence to the contrary (and I got to talk to someone who was a POW at the same time), I’d say he served honorably, and broke no worse than most who were there, under such horrible conditions.
          That being said, the way he kicked his wife to the curb after she was there for him, and his political leanings after have definitely earned him the title of Shitbag since that time.

          • Eo says:

            Divorce wasn’t uncommon with Vietnam POWs. I’m not saying it was right, but it wasn’t unusual.

      • PavePusher says:

        Citations, please?

  2. 100E says:

    Less than 1% of the population served in Vietnam. Only 9% of military age males served there.Just under 25% were draftees.
    I did 3 tours, from late 65, to 1971. One of my tours was as a REMF, and the other two were in the sh-t. I don’t care about those who didn’t go, only about posers who said they did, when they didn’t.
    McCain served with honor. I think his politics sucked, but I’ll never dis his service.

    • rgr769 says:

      His service in the military had nothing to do with what he did as a politician. Neither did the service of John Kerry have anything to do with his activities as a D-rat politician. Both of them used said service to support their political aspirations. Both of them sold out to special interests who would help their political careers. Both were devoid of ethics and integrity.

  3. 1stCavRVN11B says:

    I too had much respect for McCain. Many years ago. Not now. Not many of the POWs spoke out against him over the years but one certainly did, Col Ted Guy. There’s a good bit of history of McCain’s prior POW time as a hotdog, and of his time as a POW which many refuse to recognize. Very good rant!

  4. OldManchu says:

    Excellent thought provoking post. Thank you.

  5. reddevil says:

    I don’t think this was a rant; rather, VoV was trying to take the measure of something that probably bothers a lot of veterans. For that I applaud him.

    However, I can’t agree with much of what he says, mainly because the premise is false: it is based on a strawman of what other people believe, and a false comparison between two incomplete ideas.

    The real problem with Donald Trump’s service record is not that he did’t serve, or even the comparison with those that served, however distinguished that service may have been.

    The real problem is the the plain truth that he avoided service but still felt comfortable in criticizing the distinguished service of others, all the while stating what a great Soldier (or cop) he would have been.

    It’s not about what any of them have done since then, it’s about Donald Trumps unfounded criticisms of their service and fantasies about his own.

    • Poetrooper says:

      Red, you seem to not remember that John McCain, himself, dissed sizable numbers of his fellow Vietnam veterans, first by making the despised John Kerry his butt buddy in the Senate and later by turning on the Swift Boat officers with a vengeance when they pointed out what a phony his butt buddy was in fact. McCain called those sailors dishonorable liars for pointing out some obvious truths about Kerry’s sketchy service record and dubious awards.

      By the way, wasn’t Kerry supposed to sue the SBV’s for defamation? Except that as a lawyer, Kerry knew the defense for defamation is truth and that under the process of discovery, he’d be required to release his military records to defense attorneys.

      Yeah, so much for all that but did McCain ever apologize to his fellow sailors when Kerry let it all die quietly?

      • rgr769 says:

        Don’t forget McCain’s participation with Skerry in countering any efforts to seek further info on sightings and reports of POW’s never recovered and their efforts to normalize relations with North Vietnam. McCain stopped being a “hero” and began his political career While he was still in the Navy and stationed in the District of Criminals. And with what I know and have seen of our presidents in the past 80 years, I’m not that impressed with the ones who served in the military over the one’s who didn’t. Unless one is going to become a dictator, I fail to see how military service makes one a more skillful president.

        • MI Ranger says:

          I was always leery of McCain after reading the Manchurian Candidate!
          What was Trump’s actual full quote? “He is not a hero for being captured…but for what he did after he was captured.” I had not heard all the disparaging comments about McCain’s time in Hanoi, but his actions as a Senator always seemed to be spiteful and meant to enrich himself. I never saw him do what is right for a former Sailor or other servicemen. To me he seemed to always act like the son of a Flag Officer, with political aspirations.

    • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:


      I’m glad you disagree, we should have these discussions openly and honestly about what we’re thinking.

      As you say what Trump says today has merit in discussion with respect to character.

      My point was whatever you did or were 50 years ago is probably not who or what you were for your whole life. In that regard I don’t believe there’s a strawman comparison at all. I think if you’re judging me, or Trump, or McCain on a single four year period of our past it’s pretty easy to find moments where each one of us has a rather sketchy moment and a rather positive moment.

      I notice no one compares the moment when McCain was being chastised for being a scumbag influence peddler on behalf of a rich political donor to Trump building a business worth a fortune. I wonder why that is?

      Trump’s comments about McCain being a prisoner we abhorrent to me when they were said and still are to this day. However McCain’s being a prisoner doesn’t make him a great guy for all of eternity.

      That’s the point of the rant, stop telling me because Trump didn’t serve as McCain did that somehow I’m supposed to believe that McCain is the better man for the rest of time.

      The facts don’t support the allegation.

  6. 5th/77th FA says:

    Good shot VoV. Not that I expected any different. I am wid you. McCain let his honorable service parlay into becoming a swamp rat. Same with Mueller. Any politician on any side of the aisle that has been there more than one term is part of the problem. And now we have some that just got there and are already corrupted. (Read AOC)

    I didn’t make it in country Viet of the Nam. Volunteered to go (twice) and almost was sent there. I still showed up, dressed, for every day I was in and did my job. Pissed cause dTrump didn’t serve? No! Blow job Willie deferred and deferred and never did make it. Pissed that he didn’t serve? Not really. I just hate him and The Bitch of Benghazi for who they are. Their crap started a long time ago and they have skated too long.

    I know a lot of people that never served. They are mostly hardworking honorable people that if I called on them in time of need, they would be there. I know Veterans that served honorable and are still honorable people. I also know of veterans (small case on purpose) that were shit bags while they were in and are still shitbags. Know some that served honorable and turned into shitbags.

    Takes all kinds. I avoid the worst of them every chance I get.

    • LCpl Rhodes says:

      I don’t really know how people are calling Mueller a swamp rat. All of the people he’s gone after have been indicted or plead guilty. Are we angry because he caught people that clearly broke the law and deserved to be punished for it? Are we really supposed to shed a tear for Paul Manafort, Jerome Corsi or Roger Stone? All those people are scum.

      • Poetrooper says:

        “All those people are scum.”

        Because the Democrat media tells you so?

        • OldManchu says:

          No. It’s because Rhodes is a Marine and can’t stand the idea that a decorated Marine like “Mushy” Mueller could be such a fucking dirtbag traitor to his country.

          LCpl Rhodes – these scumbags pleading guilty does not mean that Mueller is golden. Plenty of thugs rat out their partners in scum.

          • LCpl Rhodes says:

            Those scumbags pleading guilty means Mueller captured legitimate criminals, nothing more, nothing less.

            • OWB says:

              No, Mueller did not capture legitimate criminals – he created them.

              None of the pleas were about events which occurred prior to the investigation. None were about a criminal act which was originally subject to the investigation. Each one of the pleas was the result of some process “crime” which occurred during the investigation itself and would not have occurred without the investigation.

              • LCpl Rhodes says:

                Oh, the “process crimes” defense? So, still crimes, right? Glad we agree. So people who pleaded guilty to crimes. Including the former National Security Advisor and Campaign Manager. Not exactly nobodies.

        • LCpl Rhodes says:

          No, because they plead guilty.

          • SFC D says:

            Mueller did things exactly backwards. Normally, there is evidence of a crime, and the investigation starts there. Mueller started with people he considered “criminals” and dug and dug until he found evidence. And I’ll say it again, the evidence he found did not support the collusion investigation. He found other crimes well outside the scope of the investigation. And when I say investigation, I mean witch hunt.

      • SFC D says:

        Agree with you to a certain extent. AFAIK, weren’t all the indictments and convictions unrelated to the whole “collusion investigation”?

        • LCpl Rhodes says:

          You know that the Justice Departments’ order establishing Muellers authority is a public document and spells everything out for you, right? Because you seem to be completely unaware of the scope of the investigation.

    • timactual says:

      Clinton was not just deferred. He received two draft notices and weaseled his way out; he is an actual draft dodger.

  7. Poetrooper says:

    I would be in complete agreement with you, VOV, were it not for my total contempt for John McCain.

    When you examine McCain’s life, it was notable only because of military privilege and unearned wealth. He was the son and grandson of full admirals who got him into Annapolis where he was an indifferent, partying student who graduated in the cellar (894 of 899) of his class. His family’s lofty naval legacy also got him an unearned and undeserved ticket to flight school and his subsequent career as a naval aviator was lackluster, even sub par, marked by a series of aircraft crashes and mishaps that might have gotten a lesser light booted out of naval aviation. I have had this discussion before with experts who agreed, having lived 13 years in a coastal subdivision out the back gate of Pensacola NAS, where many of our friends and neighbors were Navy and Marine aviators, men whose opinions I respected a great deal.

    McCain’s political career was bought and paid for by his wealthy new trophy wife’s father after he dumped the spouse who had stood by him throughout his years of captivity. His children from that first marriage refused to speak to this “honorable” man for many years out of resentment for his abandoning their seriously disabled mother.

    As for McCain’s noble gesture of refusing repatriation from North Vietnam, it was not his refusal to make. The Code of Conduct prohibited him from being freed ahead of those captured prior to his own capture. Article III states “I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.” As those of us who have served are aware, that provision is to prevent the enemy from using prisoners for propaganda and according to Wikipedia, “Officers were to agree to be released in the order in which they were captured.” Does anyone really believe McCain’s father, who commanded all Pacific forces at the time, could have withstood the public scandal that the release of his spoiled-brat son would have caused? Remember, back in those days, McCain still had yet to have his “war hero” image later crafted for him by the media.

    So even the single supposedly noble act of this man’s life was stage-managed to offset the very real fact that McCain had broken under torture and signed antiwar propaganda statements, that could have otherwise damaged his post-Navy political career. I do not fault McCain for breaking–he was severely tortured and beaten, treatment which likely would have broken many of us–but I also never saw him as a war hero.

    McCain’s greatest travesty in my opinion was siding with John Kerry against Vietnam veterans in general and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, specifically. He denounced those brave sailors as dishonorable liars, what to this day I still consider the most despicable act of many despicable acts attributable to this man over the course of his life. And he did it to protect his treasonous pal, whom he was probably hoping would promote him to SecNav or SecDef in the Kerry administration.

    As to which presidents have served and which haven’t, I would point out that in the thirty years since 1988, we have had sixteen years of Democrats who never served while only two years of a Republican president who never wore the uniform.

    • A Proud Infidel®™ says:

      Hear Hear, and I’ve read multiple accounts of McCain being a lackluster Aviator at best whose Father being an Admiral kept him from being canned. While I have respect for him surviving POW captivity, I have all kinds of disdain for him from his actions as a Politician.

      • Outcast says:

        After reading some things that came out of the reports as to McCain’s past and also read some of the information as to another POW (he belonged to what some of you regard as the most worthless branch) USAF Major George Everette (Bud) Day ( became LT Col while in camp and ranking officer) and seeing the suffering he went through possibly because of being in the same camp for a time with squealing McCain, I lost all respect for McCain. Be as to Bud was commander of all troops in the camps he was in and despite the many tortures he suffered, he seen to the medical care of all he commanded including McCain. John came back to fame and great accolades and rode them to the end. Bud came back to little fanfare, was made Col and retired to the quiet life in FLA and posthumously promoted to Brigadier General. Um oh yeah he was awarded Medal of Honor and Air Force Cross and is only recipient of both and was most decorated officer since Douglas MacArthur at that time. No he is not buried in Arlington, he is in Barrancas National Cemetery and also flew more types of fighter A/C than McCain crashed. F-80 to F-15

        • Poetrooper says:

          COL Day was a lawyer in Fort Walton Beach. He came to the San Antonio law firm where my wife was a legal assistant and was pleased to know that she knew who he was through his and my mutual support for the Swift Boat Vets. Wife said he was a real gentlemen.

          • Outcast says:

            Funny how one has crossed path’s with Bud. I never knew or knowingly met the man and did not know about him or what the group he led did until many years later. I heard about the book “Misty” about 30 years ago and because of my past, bought and read it. We knew about some of our A/C at Phucat were Fast Fac’s but never knew as to their mission’s while there (classified). Bud day crashed and became a POW a little over a month after I arrived at Phucat. Being some what of a mushroom (electronics specialist), we never met any of the pilots or ever heard of any lost A/C and crew. It was an honor to have served with him and the rest of the “Misty” pilots. History note, was last to earn Medal of Honor prior to end of US involvement in Vietnam.

          • CDR_D says:

            I met COL Day at a Legion of Valor Reunion in 1994 (I am an associate member). He was an awesome person. Unpretentious, gentle and kind.

    • Reddecil says:

      Poe. Once again you make unsubstantiated appeals to emotion, and assume that no one will question you.

      McCain’s heroism was ‘stage-managed’? When did he call himself a Helton, and how was it stage managed? Show me the proof that McCain asked to be released but his father refused.

      He sided with Kerry against veterans? You assume that veterans were united I t heir oppposotion to Kerry.

      Sloppy logic, and too much emotion.

      • OWB says:

        Fascinating, but more than a bit delusional.

        You are asking Poe to justify and prove things which he neither said nor inferred? Your accusations are just silly.

      • Poetrooper says:

        Reddevil, you’re not up to your game–you’re reading into my comments things I didn’t say as OWB has also noted.

        I ALWAYS assume someone will question me–most frequently Lars or LC. You’re in questionable company there.

        Due to his Flag family ties, McCain received far more publicity than the other released POW’s, even the ranking leaders.

        I have no idea what your “Helton” reference means.

        I did not say McCain asked to be released–only that under the Code of Conduct he had no right to be released ahead of the other, longer-imprisoned POW’s.

        I said nothing about veterans being united against Kerry–I pointed out that McCain sided with Kerry against the Swift Boat Veterans and you can research that yourself. It sounds like perhaps you should.

        Sloppy logic? More like sloppy reading and sloppy reasoning on your part.

    • SFC D says:

      ^THIS^. I once was a fan of John McCain, but eventually I came to realize that his number one mission in life was the promotion of John McCain.

      • timactual says:

        A type we peasants knew well and referred to as “lifers”. There were, and are, a number of such people. Military service does not confer sainthood on anyone, but it is sometimes used to claim sainthood.

    • OldManchu says:

      Pass the offering plate Poe! Preach!

    • FC2(SW)Ron says:


    • J.R. Johnson says:

      We need LIKE BUTTONS! Well said PoeTrooper

  8. Anon Army says:

    Because someone served honorably does not mean they are a honorable person. Because someone did not serve, does not mean they are not an honorable person.

    I am not qualified to say whether or not someone served honorably, so I listen to those who served with, and most importantly under, those who served.

    What I’ve heard is the deafening silence of those who served with, under and were captive with McCain. It reminds me of another “war hero” who currently holds an elected office from the cess pool of Illinois politics.

    I am moved and stunned by the courage it took for McCain to survive. That act was the last, and from all I’ve heard from those who served with, under and alongside him, was the only “honorable” moment of his life.

    • SFC D says:

      An honorable man would’ve stepped down after his diagnosis, instead of leaving AZ in the lurch to fill his seat. Now we have McSally and Sinema, both equally worthless.

  9. Mason says:

    All the people on the left outraged at Trump’s lack of service are the same people that excused Clinton’s draft dodging. As with many of Trump’s faults, the Democrats lowered the bar of presidential conduct so far with that one. Just like when they excused Clinton’s rapiness, they can’t now claim to be shocked that a man on his third wife might possibly have fidelity problems.

    • LC says:

      Couldn’t all of that be applied in reverse, too? People who hated Clinton for dodging the draft are not at all upset at President Trump for doing the same? And in this very thread, we have people criticizing McCain for leaving his wife for another, .. but giving the President a silent pass on that, twice.

      So if Democrats lowered the bar, Republicans were happy to lower it even further and limbo under it? Or shouldn’t we try to hold ourselves to some sort of principles that are applied equally?

      • Mason says:

        Absolutely. I’d argue though that the people who were outraged in the 90’s were trying to maintain the integrity of the office. Once that integrity was destroyed it’s hard to get it back.

        So it’s changed the rules of the game. Democrats lowered the bar to what was considered acceptable behavior by politicians, setting the stage for Trump.

        I’m sure in the coming years, Trump’s over the top personality and devil may care statements that piss people off (even allies), that we’ll end up with an even worse personality in the office.

        • CDR_D says:

          Don’t forget LBJ when it comes to crudity. He’d think nothing of pulling it out in the Rose Garden and watering the plants.

        • LC says:

          I guess I just don’t see why this should be a race to the bottom in terms of our principles. If once the bar is lowered, there’s no going back, does that mean that if a future President gets a blow-job in the Oval Office from an intern, we just shrug our shoulders? Do we normalize, say, taking bribes from foreign interests? What about our military? They hold to various rules about engaging with the enemy, but hey, ISIS doesn’t.. so do we say the ‘bar is lowered’ and start bombing women and children indiscriminately?

          Or, just maybe do we hold to a modicum of principle over political party, and try to be a better country for it? I’m vastly in favor of the latter position, and would hope others choose to be as well.

      • OWB says:

        Again with the apples and oranges.

        Trump’s medical deferment is not equivalent to Clinton’s actually ignoring (repeatedly) his draft notice. Failure to report is very different from being excused from service.

        Didn’t Clinton join the ROTC, then fail to take the training expected to remain in the ROTC, and after being notified to report for induction actually left the country? How are those even similar situations?

        If you want to say something like, “They both managed to avoid military service,” fine, you could skate on that, maybe, as being truthful, but how they each got there is nothing alike. One actually involved behavior for which he could have been arrested.

        • LC says:

          My point wasn’t about Clinton and Trump, it’s about the inconsistency towards them based on political identity – if dodging the draft is bad, period, then it’s disingenuous to say, “Well, Clinton’s crime was worse, so Trump gets a pass. No, it’s still bad, he doesn’t get a pass just because the other guy is worse.

          That’s like saying, “Well, we arrested two people tonight – an arsonist, and a pedophile. Guess we let the arsonist go, right?”

          But a lot of this is predicated on Trump’s deferment being legitimate or not. If he really has bone spurs, then nobody should have any problem with his lack of service. If he doesn’t, and he cheated the system, I think everyone should.

          For my part, it’s not even about the military service at all – I don’t care if POTUS served or not. That’s one aspect of an otherwise extremely complex job, and it’s all about who has the right mix of skills. But letting people skate on shit we’d eviscerate the other side for is inexcusable.

          • OWB says:

            So now your argument isn’t apples and oranges but that petunias and porcupines are equivalent?

            In case you didn’t already know this: arson and pedophilia are both crimes. Medical deferral is not draft dodging, while actually leaving the country to avoid military service to which one has been drafted is draft dodging. Makes no dif what political party the participants claim.

      • Poetrooper says:

        NOTE TO ADMIN: Please save LC time by installing a button for him that activates a standard comment that says BOTH SIDES DO IT.

        Would save LC some typing and save the rest of us from having to read his same, boring, moral equivalence arguments written umpteen different ways.

        • LC says:

          Oh, fun, I can do this too:

          NOTE TO ADMIN: Save POE some time by installing a button for him that selectively posts outrage by him based not on principle, but rather entirely whether the person in question is a ‘D’ or an ‘R’.

          You still haven’t realized the difference between asking that we hold to principle, and in doing so holding people on both sides accountable, and simply saying, “Oh, both sides are bad, so who cares?”. One is asking for a moral standard, and the other is basking in moral equivalence.

          I’m optimistic that, in time, you’ll understand the difference.

          • timactual says:

            Speaking of difference, there is a difference between dodging the draft and avoiding the draft. Those words have standard meanings and are not equivalent.

            • LC says:

              Can you clarify the distinction? I was under the impression that dodging the draft meant getting out of it via some illegitimate reason, and avoiding it entailed legitimate reasons for not getting drafted.

              That is, one could ‘dodge’ the draft via not showing up after being drafted, but one could also ‘dodge’ it by faking psychological or physical issues.

              If a person had legitimate issues, they could avoid the draft, and again, nobody would have a problem with that. As I said below, if President Trump’s bone spur issues are legitimate, he clearly doesn’t deserve any criticism whatsoever for this.

              • timactual says:

                ” People who hated Clinton for dodging the draft are not at all upset at President Trump for doing the same?”

                Your words, stating that Trump dodged the draft.

          • Poetrooper says:

            At least I understand that differences exist, a distinction that apparently eludes you. I’m sure it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy with smug self-satisfaction to occupy the centered political and philosophical high ground, as opposed to those of us lesser beings who actually do take a side and try to defend it.

            You seem to have selectively consigned to your memory hole the many, many criticisms I have made of Trump on this site, usually regarding his undisciplined running off at the mouth but sometimes his positions as well.

            And I do believe John McCain had an “R” behind his name or had you, Oh Enlightened One, in all your high-minded, principled superiority, not noticed that minor detail?

            Face it, LC, you’re a gadfly who likes to come to TAH and poke your fingers in the eyes here–in other words, another Lars but with better manners and writing skills. I hadn’t challenged you much previously until I finally got tired of your repetitious defense of the Dems with that beaten to death “Both sides do it” argument.

            Anyone who believes that the 2019 Democrats are no more unprincipled than the 2019 Republicans is not a very astute observer of or judge of contemporary political behaviors.

            Hope Admin gives you that button–should save you some time.

            • LC says:

              At least I understand that differences exist, a distinction that apparently eludes you. I’m sure it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy with smug self-satisfaction to occupy the centered political and philosophical high ground, as opposed to those of us lesser beings who actually do take a side and try to defend it.

              So, I point out differences, but then you say they elude me. My mind boggles. But no, I’ve never argued a holier-than-thou position – I simply argue that we should stand on principle, not on party. One such principle is that even if the other side lowers the bar, you keep to a standard. You don’t embrace idiocy.

              You seem to have selectively consigned to your memory hole the many, many criticisms I have made of Trump on this site, usually regarding his undisciplined running off at the mouth but sometimes his positions as well.

              I do remember your criticism of the President, but it’s pretty immaterial to the point at hand. Standards are good, double standards are not.

              And oh no, you got me – McCain was an R, so my tongue in cheek quip about you getting a button is clearly all wrong, and you win. Except most people here seem to consider him a RINO, and not a ‘real’ Republican.

              Finally, I come here because I think some engagement with both sides is good – for me, and hopefully for others on the blog. I also argue with liberals on their double standards, go figure. But I will once again go back to my primary point – it’s not, “Both sides are bad!”, it’s, “We should hold both sides to the same standard!”

              If your opinion on drone strikes, Presidential accountability, war in Syria or any other issue whatsoever changes not with a change in policy, but rather a change in leadership, then you’re a fool and a part of the problem. And, wait, let me press my button – yes, that applies to both sides.

          • Ex-PH2 says:

            Tell me, LC, do you get off on using italics every chance you get, especially when it isn’t NECESSARY!?!?!?!?!?????

            • LC says:

              Maybe just for you I’ll switch to bold for emphasis. Also, I think your ‘?’ and ‘!’ keys got stuck there.

          • akpual says:

            I don’t remember reading about Trump going to England to join in anti war protests.

      • timactual says:

        Trump did not “dodge” the draft, he received deferments. Clinton DID dodge the draft. As I noted in a previous comment Clinton received two draft notices, but failed to report.

        Trump left his former wives healthy, wealthy, and wiser after a short married life of wealth and comfort and privilege. McCain, not so much.

        • LC says:

          And again, if his deferments were valid, I have zero problem with that.

          As for dismissing President Trump’s cheating because he left his wives healthy, wealthy and wiser,.. hoo-boy, that’s a new sort of rationalization. It’s nice to see standards of morality shift with the level of wealth. I guess so long as Monica Lewinsky profited from Bill Clinton’s bad behavior, it’s all good then?

  10. Commissar says:

    It is astonishing the mental gymnastics people will stoop to to avoide acknowledging Trump for what he is; i con artist grifter thieving piece of shit that not only would sell out his country for a buck; he literally already did and continues to do so.

    Wake the F up.

    He also committed insurance fraud, tax fraud, money laundering, bank fraud, and charity fraud.

    Finally, he is not paying taxes like you think he is. Not since the financial crisis.

    • Stacy0311 says:

      Took you long enough.

      I guess all y’all on that side of the political spectrum just don’t like Orange Man because he won’t roll over and be your bitch. He’s more of the “talk shit, get hit” variety and all y’all can’t stand that from a Republican (however thin his Republican credentials must be.

      Maybe if he was buddies with domestic terrorists like Bill Ayres or knob slobbered Muslim terrorists, y’all would be okay with that.

      But hey, keep the “Orange Man Bad” commune going. Maybe someday (around 20 January 2025) you and your drum circle will finally get the Orange Man out of the White House

    • 26Limabeans says:

      Interesting thread up to this point.
      Then you just had start throwing feces like a Howler Monkey.

    • Firebase says:

      McCain and Mueller are not the only decorated combat veterans whom Trump has been bad-mouthing. He’s also made disparaging remarks about Adm. McRaven and Gen. McCrystal, nor had anything positive to say about Gen. Mattis after that decorated Marine bailed on him.

      Apparently many of the folks on this site are military veterans, some of whom actually served under fire in combat zones. I’m one of those folks, and proud of it. When I was going through USMC Boot Camp in 1969 I know what my Drill Instructors would have labeled someone like Donald J. Trump: a “slimy, draft-dodgin’ civilian puke.” Your Drill Instructors would have said the same.

      The fact that there’s been a chorus of you folks on this site, equivocating, making excuses, taking sides with, and actually championing someone of Trump’s ilk over genuine military heroes and true American patriots like McCain and Mueller has been simply astonishing to me.

      • Anon Army says:

        The fact that more than a few here are not Never Trumpers or are afflicted with Trump Derangement Syndrome is a truth. That McCain is a “genuine military hero(es) and true American patriot(s)” is not a truth. Nor is it a truth that if someone is a “genuine military hero(es) and true American patriot(s)” they are honorable and/or worthy of praise in all or even any other aspects of their life.

        Another truth-it is possible for someone to have honorable, even great military service and later do something that shows them to be a less than honorable person, except for that one, good thing they once did.

        This is one half of the point you seem to be missing.

      • MI Ranger says:

        Funny you bring McRaven and McCrystal into the conversation. I believe this forum has mentioned them before as well. A lot can be said about Flag Officers that go against the grain and get promoted. Very Rare for a Special Operations Officer to not like guns!? McCrystal got his legs cut out from under him by his own supporters for disparaging the “golden ticket” in public. Most of us would agree with President Trump’s comments about those two…they need to just fade into obscurity.

      • timactual says:

        You claim to have spent time in the military and you still think all officers are heroic figures?

        • Firebase says:

          Where did I say or even imply “all” officers? I mentioned a few by name, specifically McRaven, McCrystal, and Mattis. And yes, they’re “heroic figures,” in my eyes. I’ll add John McCain, Robert Mueller, and Bob Kerry to that list.

          When Trump takes cheap shots at any one of them, he opens himself up to these heated discussions about the alleged “bone spurs” and his four draft deferments. He ought to know better, but, as you all know quite well, he’s got diarrhea of the mouth and the fingers. It’s a condition which seems to be incurable for him, kinda like those “bone spurs.”

    • 5JC says:

      Ah geez. Trump has a lot of faults but he spent a shit ton of his own money to get elected. Not just more than any other president ever but more than EVERY other president EVER elected combined. He hasn’t earned a penny more from being president either. If anything he has lost money. This is the opposite of practically every president in the modern era including Clinton and Obama who both enriched themselves on government largesse and also played the donor game to a silliness level, especially Clinton.

      Whether his goals were altruistic or not it is too soon to tell. But the fantastical lies spun by the media about Russia collusion have gotten to the point of patently ridiculous.

      That said back in the days when Trump was a Democrat he certainly was a draft dodger as well. It is a little too much to suspend disbelief that he walked all those tours in military school and suddenly when the time came he could walk no more.

    • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

      None of what you wrote changes a word of what I wrote in any substantial way.

      Pretending that the same people who urged Obama to attack John McCain’s military record are now suddenly in awe of the great John McCain is absolutely laughable.

      To Obama’s credit he refused to be coaxed into trashing McCain’s military career. Politico had a great article in 2008 about the entire episode. It goes largely under the radar because Obama did the right thing. But I’m not so naive as to think those who have campaigned on the evils of John McCain suddenly give two shits about his storied military career.

      The reality of such comparisons is to simply attempt to take advantage of America’s recent fondness for the troops (we had no such concerns in the 70s I can assure you) by playing to their emotions. Thus ORANGE MAN BAD.

      The things you bring up are all open for review and discussion and are totally irrelevant to the discussion of the comparisons being made in those articles I mentioned.

      • Poetrooper says:

        VOV, I didn’t see the Politico article but you can bet it was written to make Obama look good. I suspect the reason Obama didn’t bring up McCain’s military service was because doing so would highlight Obama’s own lack of same. No matter how bad an aviator McCain was, he was still a combat naval aviator, an academy graduate and a disabled POW, things that might have resonated with the electorate if brought into the discussion. Obama’s handlers likely advised against introducing McCain’s service into the campaign.

    • A Proud Infidel®™ says:

      Here we go again:

      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*
      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*
      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*
      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*
      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*
      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*
      “Orange Man Bad” – *CLICK*

      You’re really boring the fuck out of me, and I’m sure I’m not the only one.

    • timactual says:

      I assume you have more evidence for those charges than Mueller and the Congressional committees do. Put up or shut up.

  11. SFC D says:

    I was listening to a local conservative radio show this morning (Garret Lewis), he rightly pointed out that the folks on the left that are singing McCain’s praises were calling for his head on a platter in 2008. The dossier has given him the fame he always sought.

    • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

      Politico had a great article about that entire episode. One of the things I respected about Obama himself was his refusal to personally be involved in those attacks on McCain’s career.

      Politico points out many on the left were pissed off at Obama for not joining in with their attacks.

      As with Trump, not everything Obama did was bad.

      • Ret_25X says:

        You want to cite an article from Politico from 2008…before Obama was president. Now, what did Obama actually do?

        Why he let his “organizations” disparage McCain. Somehow, that is fine, but doing yourself is bad.

        Finally, you missed the whole point. None of this is about McCain. At all.

        Nope, it is about so called conservatives who would rather give in to everything the proggries want to do to destroy the Republic than to risk their positions of privilege and power.

        McCain was posterboi number 1 for that and Trump is dragging him to indict the group dynamic. And it is well past time that this whole sorry bunch got dragged.

        The louder someone pisses and moans about this, the more likely it is that they are who this is really about.

        Note to the lefties: you have no moral standing on this issue. Your support for the vapid war mongering of Obama disqualifies you.

        Context…the clue is in the context…

    • timactual says:

      Evidently liberals believe in the old saying “The only good Republican is a dead Republican”.

  12. FatCircles0311 says:

    Fuck McCain.

    That shitbird was able to fuck America and Americans over for decades hiding behind his pow status. In the end he was a fucking islamist enabler and a petty sack of shit until his last breath making sure he occupied his office so he’d get his last fuck you to America via a public funeral.

    Now it is coming out he was part of the plan to frame a sitting president for crimes to get him removed. What a fucking pile of turds.

    McCain is easily one of the worst politicians America was ever burdened with. His military service doesn’t negate this by any means, rather it should make his actions even more heinous. It’s fitting his state elects an open Taliban sympathizer as well. Arizona is where shitsticks go to vote apparently.

    • HMCS(FMF) ret says:

      McCain tended to look that the military and their families at the first to go on the budgetary “chopping block”, especially when it came to health care.

      I always thought that he had an axe to grind, especially since he didn’t reach flag rank like his father and grandfather did.

      • STGCS Ret says:

        Yes that was my problem with him – he was always wanting to cut us enlisted folks benefits… Details escape me but I think he even wanted to defer our retirement pay until we reached a certain age.

  13. JTB says:

    Didn’t McCain cause an accident on a ship then run and hide so he didn’t have to answer for what he did…???

  14. RetiredDevilDoc8404 says:

    Trump is like the doctor who tells you “You’re 30 pounds overweight, you drink too much, you need to quit smoking, and your blood pressure is too high.” People don’t like to hear that stuff. McCain the Sailor I respected, the politician…very little; Mueller the Marine same deal – when the letter surfaced with his signature on it that helped keep guys the FBI framed in prison for 40 years so Whitey Bulger could go on paying them off… Let’s just say it’s like a valor thief taking a huge shit on an honorable career. It’s not just what you do in the military but over time entirety of your life that defines you as a person, and character flaws have a way of coming out. We have control over how often and to the extent we allow them to be shown, but that will be how we are judged by others. Just my $0.02 YMMV.

    • Perry Gaskill says:

      One of the useful documents to get a handle on Mueller and his apparent approach to prosecutions is one written by Congressman Louie Gohmert:

      • Outcast says:

        Be interesting to see how much bigger the pockets of money he has made in his present position as compared to what he was worth before he got the position of witch hunter for the dumbocrats.

      • RetiredDevilDoc8404 says:

        The letter I’m talking about was written when he was in the US Attorney’s Office in Boston opposing their release when the evidence came out that they were framed. One of the guys died in prison for a crime he didn’t commit and Mueller helped keep them there. What a guy.

    • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

      Indeed Alan Dershowitz (not exactly a huge Trump fan) wrote a slam piece on Mueller calling him a partisan and a zealot.

      Mr. Dershowitz rightly points out that those of us in the Bay State know full well what Mueller the choir boy did to protect a fucking murderous piece of shit. I avoided that in my rant simply but probably should have laid it right out there with the supporting documentation.

      It clearly shows the honorably Mueller willing to abuse his government authority and LIE HIS ASS OFF to keep four people in jail in order to protect his asset Whitey Bulger.

      It’s not hard to see why people in the United States are increasingly believing their system of “justice” is full of shit.

  15. 26Limabeans says:

    The fact that Trump did not serve means nothing to me. The fact that he is the duly elected President does.

    See how easy it is to separate the meaningless from the important?

  16. MCPO NYC USN Ret. says:

    I have little to say about this issue as the Irish generally don’t speak ill of the dead. Well … there are exceptions.



    • FatCircles0311 says:

      In my mind the 1MC whistle was played after I read this and it made it even more hilarious.

  17. Ex-PH2 says:

    At this point in time, arguing the “merits” of serving vs. not serving – whatEVER – comes off as a bit petty and grinchy, in my view. But that’s just me. I don’t give a flying fart in space whether Trump served or not, or what his excuse was.

    Here’s my reason: A rather long time ago, when the draft was still underway, the son of a friend of mine got called up. When he reported for his physical, the doctor told him his penis was too short. That pissed this young man off no end, so he jerked off right in the good doctor’s face. I don’t know whether that got him any points for the effort. Nor do I care. He could have accepted it and just walked away, couldn’t he? But he didn’t.

    My point is that since it’s 50++ years later, it really is pointless to keep bringing it up, and a waste of time and energy. It is NOT like sKerry’s crapweasel behavior AFTER he left the military, nor is it remotely akin to taking advantage of the gullible factor available to everyone in politics.

    Politicians are best-known for taking advantage of the gullibility factor in their listening audiences. The most recent example of that is Ms. Googlyeyes, who does and says whatever her backers tell her to do.

    Nor is corruption in politics something new. I’m sure that every vote I ever cast in my previous county went to the dominant political party instead of where I wanted it to go. So I don’t see what the Big Deal is.

    As dumb and biased as the media are, they are blind to anything that does not agree with their personal taste. Period.

    It has always been that way. Unfortunately, there are more resources available now to refute their biased reporting, and frankly, if it weren’t Trump in the White House, but rather, some other GOPer, they’d be at least as vindictive as they have been for the last two years, maybe worse. And being the nitwits that they are, they have conveniently forgotten that he ran several times on a Democrat ticket before he switched gears and went GOPer.

    At this point, I don’t think most of them even know what time of day it is, or why we have a 12-hour clock instead of the 24-hour Eurotime clock.
    Nor do I care.

    Yeah, Trump has been bankrupt, but that was partly to keep his money out of Ivana’s hands (and those other women, too, like Marla) when she was divorcing him. People declare bankruptcy to protect their assets, you know. WaPo still hasn’t retracted its defamatory article about the Covington High School teen, and probably won’t until or unless Bezos has to cough up the cost of their libelous crap. Then – well, WaPo will end its long, non-illustrious history as a source of reportage and regroup as a new entity. That’s how that works.

    The advantage of the internet is the same as its biggest disadvantage: it allows people to think that they can find out everything possible about someone with YOUR name, even if it is NOT the same person as you. And that can draw the good, the bad and the ugly into a cesspit that has nothing to do with you.

    McCain’s dead and buried. I’d have to have a good reason to pound on him, and I don’t. Trump is a deal-maker and doesn’t give a crap about what the media think of him. That must really annoy them. They can’t hit center mass with him, so they go after other people who work for him.

    In case anyone hasn’t figured it out yet, Washington, DC isn’t just a swamp. It’s become a cesspit filled with vipers in the last 50 years, and there’s a whole NEW generation of them wallowing in that slime. As long as it’s a free ride at taxpayers’ expense, it will go on being like that.

    Geezo Pete, and I thought Rome the Imperium was bad when I was in high school.

    • Haywire Angel says:

      Well said!

    • Firebase says:

      50++ years later, and pointless to bring it up? Who’s the “Open Mouth, Insert Foot” guy who brought it up (again) and has been tirelessly tweeting about it all weekend and well into this week?

      What’s the point of Donald Trump exhuming John McCain and disparaging him once again? Every time Trump does it, it only leads directly to the quite obvious fact that McCain put on the uniform and served his country honorably, while Trump partied in his NYC penthouse and whined about “bone spurs.”

      If Trump had not foolishly brought up the subject once again (after the subject of his ire has been long dead and buried) we wouldn’t even be having discussion. No one would. Not CNN, not Fox, not MSN.

      Because Trump dredged this up, now even Bob Kerry has entered the fray, asking to see evidence that Trump actually had these alleged “bone spurs.” This is Bob Kerry, not John, the guy who served in Vietnam as a Navy SEAL, lost half his leg in a firefight, was awarded the Medal Of Honor, and later served as a U.S. Senator. Go ahead, I know some of you will now do your utmost to dredge up whatever dirt you can find on Bob Kerry. I’m sure the researchers at Fox News and inside the White House are already busy doing that.

      Doesn’t the President of the United States have more important issues to concern himself with? More important topics to tweet about? Let him find a way to get rid of Presidente Maduro, for one, and then afterwards we’ll all have better topics to discuss and tweet about. At least, until the next time he feels the urge to disparage John McCain.

      • Mason says:

        Why would anyone care what a retired senator wants to see? Bob Kerrey’s military record has no bearing. Trump was classified 4F by a medical board. They’re the only ones he had to prove anything to.

      • timactual says:

        Not that I give a rat’s posterior what he thinks, but I think Bob Kerry had best keep a low profile. I don’t think it was a coincidence that he dropped out of politics when he did. some of us still have some questions.

        • Firebase says:

          Aha, here it comes. Told ya so. Bob Kerry had the temerity to finally speak up, after holding his tongue for so long until he finally reached his boiling point. And now, of course, some of you “have some questions,” and are advising Mr. Kerry to continue to keep his “low profile.”

          This Medal Of Honor recipient summoned up the courage to divert the crosshairs toward himself and away from McCain and Mueller, at least momentarily. It’ll be interesting to see what manner of “dirt” Trump and his followers manage to dig up on him.

          • Poetrooper says:

            Firebase, as much as it may shock you and LC, I agree with you that Trump needs to zip his lip and lighten up on Twitter. As much as I despised McCain for turning on the Swift Boat Vets, I don’t think Trump should be dissing the guy on a national forum. That he continues with such behavior makes me wonder if his internal polling doesn’t show that his outspokenness is actually helping him with the American public rather than hurting him.

            He’d been silent on McCain for a while but the revelation last week that it was McCain’s staff who pushed the phony dossier got him riled. Such treacherous backstabbing by a member of your own party would tend to piss a man off.

            Been doing a little research on McCain’s history and he was apparently not highly thought of by his fellow naval aviators. In spite of having less than stellar flying skills, he was a hot-tempered, in-your-face hot dog who took too many risks and pissed off a lot of his fellow aviators. They resented his ability to avoid responsibility for his repeated screw-ups because of his flag protection.

            The naval aviator community is small and exclusive–it was widely believed within that group that based on his miserable academic performance (894 out of 899) and disciplinary issues at Annapolis, McCain should never have qualified for flight school. It was also believed that after three crashes he should have been grounded, and would have, had he not had that flag influence.

            Many of McCain’s fellow POW’s didn’t have a high opinion of him either. Even McCain later admitted that he thought he had it easier as a POW because of his flag influence. Some of his fellow POW’s said he took advantage of that.

            As for Bob Kerrey, I’ve always admired his military service but was never much impressed with his changing political positions–he was another one of those pols with sensible Midwestern values who went to Washington and got liberalized.

            By the way, were you aware that McCain’s POW status was criticized during the 2008 campaign by liberal Democrat Army general, Wesley Clark, who said pretty much the same thing as Trump, that being a POW didn’t qualify him to be president? Did you also know that Trump endorsed McCain in his 2008 run? What’s that about politics makes strange bedfellows?

            So does military service…

          • timactual says:

            “. And now, of course, some of you “have some questions,” ”

            I “STILL have some questions” is a more complete quote, as I have for several decades now. YOU brought him into the conversation, evidently knowing exactly what would happen.

            ” what manner of “dirt” Trump and his followers manage to dig up on him”

            Doesn’t take much digging.


      • Ex-PH2 says:

        Try to keep up with things, Firebase.

        Maduro is no longer in charge of anything re: Venezuela. Guaido is the president-elect and is already taking charge of putting his country back together. Maduro’s cronies who looted the Venezuela treasury of billions are being forced to return that money. Some of them may go to jail, and I sincerely hope that happens.

        In re: Trump’s daily twitterpating, you misread his intentions. He knows what pisses off his opposition. Otherwise, he wouldn’t bother.

        I GET that you don’t like Trump, and I don’t really care. I’m over here on the sidelines watching people get their undies in a bunch because all they can do is react to what he throws out into The Wild, and that is what YOU are doing, too. It’s a helluva show.

        • Firebase says:

          I’m the one who’s been on the sidelines here for quite some time, listening to you and others get your “undies in a bunch” on a regular basis. You’re the ones who Trump is playing like a fiddle.

          By the way, Maduro is still the guy seated in the Presidential Palace in Caracas. Even Fox News will tell you that. Maybe you’re the one who needs to pay more attention?

          I’ll give Trump a lot of credit if he throws this petty dictator out on his ass and feeds him to the raging masses. I’m hoping that’s what the plan is. I’m quite sure that most of the dirty work will be left to Venezuela’s neighbors, Brazil and Colombia. Fingers are crossed. C’mon, Trump, give us an accomplishment we can all be proud of! If he can pull that off, I might even vote for him in 2020, “bone spurs” notwithstanding.

          • SgtM says:

            Just beating Shrillary, and putting conservative judges on the SCOTUS and appointing other conservative judges, right now is good enough for me. Now if he would put Obama and Holder in prison for selling guns to cartels and killing U.S. citizens with them. That would REALLY make my day. Remember Brian Terry, Obama built that.

            • Firebase says:

              You left out a few accomplishments: Stopped the Central American migrant caravan in its tracks at the US border. Moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Got other NATO members to pony up and pay their fair shares for the common defense.

              See, I don’t hate Trump. But I don’t appreciate anyone — anyone! — who disparages American war heroes, especially when the vitriol is coming from someone who was eligible to serve, but weaseled their way out during the height of the Vietnam Conflict.

          • Poetrooper says:

            “You’re the ones who Trump is playing like a fiddle.”

            Um, no, you must not be on the sidelines that often or you’d know that pretty much all of us here who write in support of Trump do so with ready acknowledgment of his many faults. And apparently enough people in America feel the same way that his favorables keep going up in spite of the never-ending Trump Derangement in the media.

            Hey, the guy was mouthy right from the start–he was brash, even rude, to the other Republican candidates and the media. The public cringed but they loved it–because he promised changes common-sense Americans had wanted to see happen for years–and the man’s been keeping those campaign promises. How unusual is that?

            You call that playing us like a fiddle? I’d say that drum you’re pounding has all the resonance of the one carried around by that toothless Indian bum.

            • timactual says:

              I, myself, am just following the policy and advice of Democrats who supported Clinton(s) et al.; we must endure and tolerate minor character flaws in personal conduct and look at The Big Picture. Policy is much more important than petty personal peccadilloes.

            • Firebase says:

              I mentioned other names besides McCain and Mueller: McRaven, McCrystal, Mattis, and now Bob Kerry. Every one of them a decorated veteran, and every one of them on Trump’s Shit List, because they had the temerity to call him out.

              You’re a veteran too, correct? And yet you’re giving Trump a pass on his draft-dodging evasion of service, during the height of the Vietnam conflict, and siding with him over men who made personal sacrifices on behalf of this country? Did you give Bill Clinton that same consideration? What if it had been Obama who lied to the Draft Board with a falsified “doctor’s note” about “bone spurs”?

              So, yeah, if you’re a veteran who swore the oath and put on the uniform, Trump is playing you like a fiddle. You’re singing in his choir, to a song he’s written especially for you. And as long as Trump continues insulting and disparaging American heroes like McCain and Mueller, I’ll keep banging my drum.

    • Fyrfighter says:

      “it allows people to think that they can find out everything possible about someone with YOUR name, even if it is NOT the same person as you.”
      Good point EX.. my sister in law is a skinny 50 something white girl. she recently got turned down on a “background check” when trying to rent an apartment.. problem is, when she got the info from them on the background check, the pic was of a younger, chubby black woman… seems they couldn’t be bothered to do it right, even with all the resources available.

    • ” his penis was too short.”
      Come on … you didn’t believe that story did you?

      • Ex-PH2 says:

        It was his mother who told me about it. Who else would I believe? I thought it was as funny as a cat chasing ball of twine.

  18. Never heard of you VOV but I was impressed by your take on McCain and as a general evaluation of a man’s value to this country … in light of his military service or lack thereof. Have had mixed feelings about McCain which stem from his politics and then the vicious rumors which float around the internet about his service, especially when he was a POW. I found your assessment … measured, nonpartisan, with some excellent points and well put on top of that. I’m new to this group so please bear with me if I have messed this up a bit.

    • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

      No worries, you could have found me full of shit and it’s still all good with me.

      I post what I’m thinking and it’s often not in sync with the bulk of the board here.

      Feel free to tell me when I’m wrong as well, I’m good with criticism.

  19. Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

    Wow, lots of comments and lots of directions on tangent for those comments.

    I think it’s important to clarify a couple of things from my perspective.

    I’m not a Trump fan, I’m not suggesting Trump is a great guy.

    What I’m saying is I don’t care what Mueller, McCain, or Trump did 50 years ago. I’m saying I care about what’s going over the entirety of a man’s career and life.

    You can save a man’s life in a firefight and get wounded and be called a hero and you can some years later lie your ass off to keep four innocent men in jail to protect a fucking scumbag murdering piece of shit like Whitey Bulger and now those two things are both part of what you are. Does being a hero in the late 60s exonerate your lies and legal malfeasance to protect a murderer at a later time? Perhaps it does for some people, for me it doesn’t at all.

    Does being a POW who was tortured but refused to leave before everyone else mitigate the fact you acted unethically on numerous occasions during your political career? For me it doesn’t.

    Does getting a 4F on your medical exam brand you a shitbag for the rest of your life and make your donations of 102 million over a five year period null and void? Does that 4F mean your donation of a 26 million dollar piece of land to the state is without merit?

    We are not any single moment or any short two to four year period. That is my point.

    History will judge all three men for the totality of their lives.

    Trump may easily be the worst of the lot in that context, but pretending their previous honorable and commendable service exonerates the other two from any responsibility for the remainder of their days is dishonest and foolish.

    • LC says:

      VOV, out of genuine curiosity, where is the evidence that Mueller was responsible for the Whitey Bulger stuff? I’d heard that claimed by various conservatives, but the federal judge involved in the case said it simply isn’t true:

      In an April 8 interview with John Catsimatidis on his New York radio show, Mr. Dershowitz asserted that Mr. Mueller was “the guy who kept four innocent people in prison for many years in order to protect the cover of Whitey Bulger as an F.B.I. informer.” Mr. Mueller, he said, was “right at the center of it.” Mr. Bulger was a notorious crime boss in Boston, the head of the Winter Hill Gang, and also a secret source for the F.B.I.

      There is no evidence that the assertion is true. I was the federal judge who presided over a successful lawsuit brought against the government by two of those men and the families of the other two, who had died in prison. Based on the voluminous evidence submitted in the trial, and having written a 105-page decision awarding them $101.8 million, I can say without equivocation that Mr. Mueller, who worked in the United States attorney’s office in Boston from 1982 to 1988, including a brief stint as the acting head of the office, had no involvement in that case. He was never even mentioned.


      (Open incognito, or The Hill references it here: )

      I’m in full agreement with you that we’re not defined by one moment, but rather our life times, but where is a credible, first-hand source that shows he was responsible?

      I’m open to the notion, but haven’t yet found one.

      • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

        LC, for me the fact that the four men were awarded $102 million dollars in 2007 goes a long way to indicating just how corrupt the FBI was in the conviction of those men.

        When Mueller worked for Bill Weld in the Boston AG’s office that office lobbied the parole board to deny commutation of sentence for Peter Limone one of the four men framed in the murder to protect Bulger. Mueller was directly under Weld, Mueller succeeded Weld and also sent a similar letter to the parole board as did Mueller’s successor Frank McNamara. Interestingly enough Mueller’s letter can’t be found today by the parole board.

        It strains credibility to suspect that Mueller, in the absence of that letter, was oblivious to what his direct predecessor was doing in that case and what is direct successor did in that case. Especially when you consider Zip Connolly the fucking corrupt shitbag FBI agent passing on information to Bulger while Mueller was in the Boston AG office. Thinking none of these guys knew what the others were doing is purposely putting on blinders.

        The Boston Globe and Springfield Mass Mayor Mike Albano both reported the existence of the Mueller letter that is now missing.

        In the absence of the letter what one can prove in court is limited, but it’s ludicrous to think the second highest man in the AG’s who would become the AG himself in a few months and that man’s successor wouldn’t all be on the same page regarding the FBI’s most wanted criminal, a corrupt FBI agent and four unlucky turds imprisoned for something they didn’t do but served to protect that most wanted criminal and informant.

        • LC says:

          Thanks, looks like I have some reading to do.

        • LC says:

          To add, I started reading an article [1] that talks about the four men being awarded $102M, and the judge in that case condemning misconduct all the way up to the FBI director. That judge, Nancy Gertner, is the very same one that wrote the Op-Ed I listed above where she says Mueller is being smeared.

          [1] :

          It also strains credibility to imagine that this same judge, who was pissed at the FBI and awarded the $102M, would defend Mueller if he had, in fact, been involved. For reference, you can read the ruling here, too:

          I still have plenty of reading to do, but if you haven’t read the Op-Ed, I highly recommend it.

          • Veritas Omnia Vincit says:

            Read it and from a legal perspective I understand her point in defending Mueller.

            As I said the letter’s gone missing. In the absence of that letter you can’t prove anything and consequently Mueller looks clean as a whistle.

            For me it’s an Occam’s Razor thing, do I believe the 2nd in command at the AG’s office is completely in the dark during his entire tenure as number 2 and then number 1 with respect to the biggest FBI informant in that office in Whitey Bulger or is there a simpler explanation on what might have happened there?

            There aren’t a lot of possibilities here LC,

            1) Mueller served as Weld’s number 2 man and never knew what was going on and when Mueller became the number one and the Parole Board once again considered the four framed guys he said and did nothing but the Parole Board this time spontaneously decided to keep all four men confined and deny commutations. Also as soon as Mueller leaves his successor files the same type of letter as Weld did to recommend the continued confinement of the four men. This is the only scenario Mueller is guilt free and it implies if he had no idea what was happening with their biggest informant he’s a fucking moron completely unaware of the single largest operation they have going during his time as the number 2 and number 1 man in Boston AG’s office.

            2) Mueller knew exactly what was going on, but was smart enough to never file a written document tying himself to the operation. This means Mayor Mike Albano and the editorial staff of the Globe are full of shit liars themselves and working together to smear Mueller.

            3) Mueller knew exactly what was going on, filed a letter exactly as Weld did and McNamara would do after Mueller that was later “lost” removing the physical evidence link to Mueller. But once again leaving the Mayor and the Globe to their version of events now unprovable.

            Which of these options seems the most viable to you is for you to decide.

            For me knowing how organizations work it’s inconceivable that the number 2 man has no idea what the number 1 man is doing with the largest business component currently in front of that organization, especially in light of the time frame of the early 80s where Conolly and other corrupt FBI agents were being exposed as actually working for Bulger instead of the FBI to protect Whitey.

            But we all draw our own conclusions.

            • Poetrooper says:

              I’m in agreement with you, VOV, that it seems exceedingly unlikely that Mueller could completely separated from the events going on all around him. However, in absence of the letter, it would seem that this argument, for now, goes to LC. (See, LC, I’ll give you credit when its due)

              But, as Alan Dershowitz says in reference to that missing letter, “Absence of evidence is not conclusive evidence of absence, especially in government files.”

            • Heh. Why, I believe I’ll take door number 3, good sir.

          • timactual says:

            “Just ask former U.S. District Court Judge Nancy Gertner. In 2003, she threatened to cite Mueller for contempt of court for his refusal to turn over exculpatory evidence when the wronged men sued. (She eventually awarded them $107 million.)”


  20. Templar1312 says:

    I’m just happy someone brought that turd Ted nugent up. Just because you think you’re a bad ass gun toting jerkoff today doesn’t give you a pass for failing to bathe and shitting yourself so you could escape the draft. All these ‘right-wingers’ praising that turd make me sick.